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Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

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Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#101

Post by nbardy »

m0llusk wrote: post #99
ikt wrote: post #2

why does the local council not employ people to clean the streets?

Why would you think a serious problem is necessarily simple to solve? Money for maintenance and cleanup is limited. San Francisco has legions of homeless, troubled, and then a big layer of irresponsible rebels on top of all of that. The idea that one of the greatest accumulations of irregulars and undesirables would be simple to clean up after does not correspond at all to the real scale of the problem. How many thou…

San Francisco spends $100k+ per homeless person. We have the resources it’s about how they’re used.

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#102

Post by nbardy »

blunte wrote: post #12
_dain_ wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a city that puts up billboards telling junkies how to "safely" shoot up heroin

You're not going to stop a junkie from shooting up (without a comprehensive, life-changing program). So barring that, you might as well teach them how to be more safe so they don't end up in a hospital spending your tax money for emergency care... or worse, dead somewhere and likewise then consuming public funds to deal with it. [added] Since this is such a controversial topic, I would recommend reading about Portuga…

I’d welcome Portugal’s approach, but it is very different. San Francisco doesn’t prosecute dealers, and encourages open drug markets and camps on the street by funding and encouraging the behavior with permanent enabling, no path towards rehabilitation, and lack of law enforcement on the dealers and the non-drug crimes the commit.

Compassion and understanding of drug use issues is a different world than enabling spiraling dens of despair.

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#103

Post by computerphage »

_jal wrote: post #30
another_story wrote: post #4

In Taiwan the locals, usually the elderly, sweep and clean near their own houses or the parks where they congregate. Some do it as part of a neighborhood group, while others clean parks and areas near temples for religious reasons. Good way to build community. On another note, let people read without pop-ups please.

I used to clean up near my front door, but it became overwhelming. I live in a "bad" part of SF, by choice - I have a huge, cheap apartment. Until about 5 or so years ago, the homeless situation was not that bad around me. There would be periods where people with problems would be around, but generally it wasn't a big deal. I'd clean up around my and my downstairs neighbor's doors, and a bit wider if needed. Some of…

Well, I'm actually fascinated and wish to hear more. How did you figure out that the cops were funneling people?

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#104

Post by nbardy »

baybal2 wrote: post #34

I advice HN readers to go, and to participate. Besides actually cleaning the streets, it brings very big spotlight to the problem. And in some rare cases, if activity like this may go viral, some people in charge of public sanitation might remember of the shame enough to do their work.

There are bureaucrats making 6 figures sitting around and doing nothing for 40 years now. I don’t think shame is going to get them into action. Shame would be what they feel looking around their city. They must be used to it at this point.

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#105

Post by nbardy »

refurb wrote: post #76
blunte wrote: post #10

I just don't understand why throwing trash on the ground is tolerated. There is virtually no argument for why someone should need or be allowed to throw or leave their trash on the ground. Most of us manage to get clothes on before we leave the house each day, and that's a lot more complicated than just putting trash into a bin (or god forbid, carrying it until you reach a destination which has a trash bin). So there…

People are shitting in the streets, shooting drugs in the open and shoplifting with no consequences and you think SF is willing to impose severe penalties on littering?

If only we had littering laws SF would be such a beautiful place…

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#106

Post by xibalba »

jonpurdy wrote: post #37
another_story wrote: post #4

In Taiwan the locals, usually the elderly, sweep and clean near their own houses or the parks where they congregate. Some do it as part of a neighborhood group, while others clean parks and areas near temples for religious reasons. Good way to build community. On another note, let people read without pop-ups please.

It wasn't until I rented a floor of a house (and garage and front yard) in SF (Outer Sunset) last year that I really noticed the problem in North America with personal responsibility and keeping streets clean. I'm constantly picking up litter from my tiny front yard, sidewalk, and curb. Cigarette butts are the worst and I bought a small electric leaf blower to help deal with it quickly. It wouldn't be as much of an i…

> I think the big problem here is that there's no inertia to keep the place clean.

Huh? Isn’t the big problem the litter-ers and their littering?

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#107

Post by rufus_foreman »

DantesKite wrote: post #13
blunte wrote: post #10

I just don't understand why throwing trash on the ground is tolerated. There is virtually no argument for why someone should need or be allowed to throw or leave their trash on the ground. Most of us manage to get clothes on before we leave the house each day, and that's a lot more complicated than just putting trash into a bin (or god forbid, carrying it until you reach a destination which has a trash bin). So there…

Singapore generally has very clean streets, but the price is very high fines. I like the idea of a $1000 fine or community service spent cleaning up trash.

So when the person you tell to do community service says, "No", then what?

SF has no willingness to actually punish crime. The cops won't show up to stop shoplifting, bike theft, or any number of other crimes, and now you think there's going to be a trash patrol that is going to actually do something?

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#108

Post by sevilo »

OJFord wrote: post #8
another_story wrote: post #4

In Taiwan the locals, usually the elderly, sweep and clean near their own houses or the parks where they congregate. Some do it as part of a neighborhood group, while others clean parks and areas near temples for religious reasons. Good way to build community. On another note, let people read without pop-ups please.

In Canada they clear the snow/ice from the pavement in front of their own house. I've since heard it's (in at least some areas?) required though, which ruined the image a bit. (And sort of odd isn't it? Instead of taxing you and providing you with this service, we'll require you to do it? Seems inefficient.)

if someone slips in front of your house because you failed to clear snow from the sidewalk I believe you can get fined or sued

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#109

Post by m0llusk »

nbardy wrote: post #100
m0llusk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This idea that a lot of money is involved therefore every imaginable need must be fully covered is extremely dangerous and unreasonable. Just one example of how this goes is residents have pushed the City to take responsibility for trimming of all street trees which used to be the responsibility of property owners. The result is a lot of trees either ignored or hacked to death by untrained workers in a hurry. Large a…

Hes not asking that “every imaginable need be fully covered”. He’s asking for the well funded sanitation department to do their job.

And yet that is completely unrealistic. The City currently funds weekly teams clearing out all the most troubled areas and that costs a fantastic amount up front as well as competing for increasingly precious landfill space. Defining the job of public works to be picking up all the trash that veritable armies of homeless generate does not make that job possible. You are absolutely and undeniably using your imagination to balance a spreadsheet that is a complete mess and that is not working and will never work.
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