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The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

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Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#181
post #149
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The costs are more diffuse than this. First, the U.S. system costs twice as much as other systems because we have more people employed delivering care and they make higher salaries. Doctors, nurses, they all make more in the U.S. than in Europe. So more people, getting paid higher wage, results in double the costs. But wait, the financing in the U.S. is quite predatory, so a lot of people pay nothing, and a few peopl…

Ok, I'll take all of that at face value and as given. It just sounds completely broken over there and I'm not sure I will manage to wrap my head around it. All I know is simpler systems around the world exist and work such that those 10 middle class families would never get stiffed like that, whilst also looking after the needy. I can't fathom it.

> It just sounds completely broken over there and I'm not sure I will manage to wrap my head around it.

Agreed. But that's the way it is, and it's important to understand why it's this way.

When Europe and Australia adopted national healthcare systems, the industry was ~3-5% of GDP. So at that point it wasn't politically strong enough to resist either nationalization or strict controls.

Then healthcare mushroomed in size, being ~10% of GDP in Europe and 20% of GDP in the U.S.

So now, when you try to do the politics that the europeans did, it doesn't work. The industry is too powerful. Merely blaming the US for not doing what Europe did misses this essential point.

There are millions of nurses, lab techs, administrators, and doctors, and they have money and they vote. So the left keeps looking for some villain -- greedy insurance executives, Wall Street, Evil Billionaires, etc. And basically refuses to understand that these are not the ones standing in the way of reform. It's the 13% of our labor force that earns 20% of national income, and these are not the same easy targets that the left can attack, because they are a large portion of the US middle class, and are core Democratic constituencies.

That's why healthcare reform in the U.S. always focuses on having the government pay some of the costs charged to consumers rather then reducing the costs of providing healthcare. E.g. more subsidies for this bloated industry, which only results in costs rising even more, and then calls for even more subsidies when people can't afford to pay the costs. When what we should do is fire 50% of the staff and cut the pay of those that remain by another 50%. That's the only way to get affordable healthcare.

And you have a similar problem with higher ed.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#182

This is absurd. Even in a country with liberal economics and "free choice" health system (however with universal care, and state regulation), the same stitches in a world-class private clinic in Santiago, Chile would cost 400 USD, before insurance . The clinics there are not the ones Americans imagine from a middle-income country, most of them have better infrastructure and doctors than the ones I know in Europe. And…

Yep, and the same shits go around telling everyone to get an ambulance instead of Uber to go to the hospital and go to the ER instead of urgent care for certain symptoms. Fix your fucking system first.

Even I avoid the ER because of costs.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#183
post #18

My daughter here in France had a bike accident two months ago which requires 14 stitches in her foot. We received 3 follow-up visits from nurses to clean and redress her wounds -- We pay about 100€ a month for supplemental private insurance on top of the public health insurance here -- Total cost for us? about 40€. We would have had to pay about 100€ more for the nurses' visits, but the mutuelle covered it. These are…

I live in the US and my employer pays for my very excellent health insurance.

For my family of 4 the most I will pay in any one year is $750.

About 1/3 of people in the US have excellent healthcare and benefits. You don’t often hear from us.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#184
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those prices, odds are one could save money by traveling to Brazil and getting dental care in a top clinic in São Paulo or Rio de Janeiro. There must be other countries with cheap care. Someone should make a startup for that.

Medical tourism is a good business in India to cater to exactly such cases. They also advertise these all inclusive prices.

Yeah but there's a global pandemic right now and India isn't exactly doing well...

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#185
I've heard positive reviews of Never Pay the First Bill: And Other Ways to Fight the Health Care System and Win https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/635536/never-pay-th.... I've only read as far as the free preview allows, but it looks good.

It teaches the system and how to fight back by a Propublica investigative journalist who had to fight the system himself.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#186

This is absurd. Even in a country with liberal economics and "free choice" health system (however with universal care, and state regulation), the same stitches in a world-class private clinic in Santiago, Chile would cost 400 USD, before insurance . The clinics there are not the ones Americans imagine from a middle-income country, most of them have better infrastructure and doctors than the ones I know in Europe. And…

Eso solo aplica si tienes Isapre, seguro, etc etc

Los gringos están mal pero en chile tampoco estamos bien bien

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was still a FFS model. The difference is whether the procedure is typically covered by insurance.

I don't see how it's fee for service if nobody can tell you what it's going to cost upfront.

The hospital is reimbursed on a fee for service basis. Most (all?) countries use a fee for service model, but most countries also don't have for-profit payers that are incentivized to drive up the cost of care.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#188

How does the hospital arrive at the cost? From what I can see there is a cost breakdown in the article, but a deeper breakdown would help make sense of these things. If the hospital has to pay for administrative staff, nurses, doctors, maintenance, electricity, etc. and then deliver a profit to the owner. Is this profiteering or just costs that are passed on to the patient? If it's the latter, then why are those cost…

Prices in medical care like anything else is a function of the maximum amount of money that can be extracted.

With the socialized Medicare/Medicaid already in place, hospitals charge as much as they can knowing the government has deep pockets, will pay, and will give minimal resistance.

Those high prices are then charged to insurance companies as well through closed door, complex negotiations on a case by case basis - super inefficient and expensive.

Also without consumers in the loop even caring what their insurance company is paying, and no price transparency in general, there is no pressure to decrease prices, improve quality or compete in general which are the cornerstones of free market economics.

Luckily price transparency laws were passed last year and are still working their way through the system so hopefully people will start to get a taste of what’s possible soon and decide to take those laws even further.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#189
> But many facilities will require those who have insurance to use it — knowing they can bill higher prices that way.

And therein lies the problem.. It's been said over and over but there is still no getting around the fact that most people in the US literally can't afford to get sick or have an accident.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#190
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people somewhere, with cigars, in $5,000 suits. "Look at all those schmucks! $400 per shot and $1,000 per stitch." The whole healthcare system needs to be regulated by the government end-to-end. All procurement must be transparent. Every cent traced. Pharma mafia dismantled - on a federal level.

Who are these people? Where are they? Not really convinced they exist.

"Both the physicians and the hospital are part of companies recently taken over by private-equity investors."
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