Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would allowing nature to take its course and having them die really be that bad? It is better for society for them to not exist (in a peaceful manner ie not outright jailing/ worse) or for them to exist and harass innocent bystanders? Think about it this way, if they did not exist, and you had the power to create them, would would willingly/ purposefully create them? They are taking up resource that could be better s…
Please keep this sort of generic flamewar comment off HN. It will only lead to hell.
Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands
61–70 of 133 posts
Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands
#62I just don't understand why throwing trash on the ground is tolerated. There is virtually no argument for why someone should need or be allowed to throw or leave their trash on the ground. Most of us manage to get clothes on before we leave the house each day, and that's a lot more complicated than just putting trash into a bin (or god forbid, carrying it until you reach a destination which has a trash bin). So there…
> I just don't understand why throwing trash on the ground is tolerated. There is virtually no argument for why someone should need or be allowed to throw or leave their trash on the ground. It comes back to the policies around law enforcement adopted by SF. Since it is effectively the epicenter of progressive politics in the world, there are a lot of radical policies in play. One of them is "restorative justice", wh…
Maybe it is more persuasive and appealing. If it doesn't appeal to you, that doesn't mean the only explanation for everyone is volume and fear.
Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're not going to stop a junkie from shooting up (without a comprehensive, life-changing program). So barring that, you might as well teach them how to be more safe so they don't end up in a hospital spending your tax money for emergency care... or worse, dead somewhere and likewise then consuming public funds to deal with it. [added] Since this is such a controversial topic, I would recommend reading about Portuga…
You can stop a junkie from shooting up by imprisoning them, or better yet, putting them through drug rehab. Everything else is not a solution and only exacerbates the problem. There's nothing safe about staying addicted to drugs.
Those responses have been tried for many years, with very poor results. Also, it's not clear that there is anything criminal about the vice of drugs, and thus taking away their freedom would be highly unjust. We take away people's freedom for bad behavior or because other people are uncomfortable.
Based on the little I know, what does help people is giving them access to social services. I think several American cities are pioneering bringing the services to the person - when authorities are called, they don't send police or only police, but people who can connect the person to various agencies.
Apparently this approach results in a much higher rate of service use (which makes sense commercially - if someone had to wait in long lines and fill out dozens of forms, and then face long delays for service, you wouldn't have many customers. If someone showed up, when need the service, and offered it on the spot, you'd sell a few more). And those people gain more stable lives and are able to better care for themselves.
We can see plenty of wealthy professionals turn to damaging behavior under great stress. Imagine how they would do if added to that stress is having no roof or reliable food, the loss of safety, the loss of any credibility - even enough to get basic jobs, the harassment, etc. But then them: 'We'll take care of the shelter, food, etc., and here are classes to help cope with your other problems without using drugs', and I can imagine they would have a much better chance.
Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands
#64I just don't understand why throwing trash on the ground is tolerated. There is virtually no argument for why someone should need or be allowed to throw or leave their trash on the ground. Most of us manage to get clothes on before we leave the house each day, and that's a lot more complicated than just putting trash into a bin (or god forbid, carrying it until you reach a destination which has a trash bin). So there…
Are the people littering mostly civilians or drug addicts?
Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands
#65I just don't understand why throwing trash on the ground is tolerated. There is virtually no argument for why someone should need or be allowed to throw or leave their trash on the ground. Most of us manage to get clothes on before we leave the house each day, and that's a lot more complicated than just putting trash into a bin (or god forbid, carrying it until you reach a destination which has a trash bin). So there…
Are the people littering mostly civilians or drug addicts?
Mostly civilians who are not also drug addicts (“civilians” and “drug addicts” are, of course, overlapping sets.)
Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands
#66One of the things that causes littering is a lack of trash cans or a lack of non-filled trash cans. Not all littering (or throwing recycling in the trash) is done out of pure malice. If you make it easy for people to throw trash out, they generally will. If you make it hard to throw trash out, many will litter. Stronger fines and other enforcement would help, but the first thing is to make sure that you actually have…
https://missionlocal.org/2021/03/newsoms-experiment-to-get-r...
Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands
#67Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands
#68Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're not going to stop a junkie from shooting up (without a comprehensive, life-changing program). So barring that, you might as well teach them how to be more safe so they don't end up in a hospital spending your tax money for emergency care... or worse, dead somewhere and likewise then consuming public funds to deal with it. [added] Since this is such a controversial topic, I would recommend reading about Portuga…
You can stop a junkie from shooting up by imprisoning them, or better yet, putting them through drug rehab. Everything else is not a solution and only exacerbates the problem. There's nothing safe about staying addicted to drugs.
Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
> but it also sends the message that shooting up heroin is tolerated, even encouraged So what? An addict is going to shoot up whether it’s tolerated or not, and non-addicts aren’t going to take up heroin because they say a billboard. If you really want to end it, it’s going to need to be a lot more comprehensive, expensive, and expansive than the presence or absence of a billboard.
okay, how about we put up billboards saying >When you smash a window to rob a store, be careful not to cut yourself on the glass. Wear thick gloves. after all, a billboard is not going to stop a burglar, is it? and if we're going to have burglaries, it's better that the burglars don't injure themselves while committing their crimes, because after all it will reduce the burden on hospitals. it will also protect the st…