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Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

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41–50 of 133 posts

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#41

In Taiwan the locals, usually the elderly, sweep and clean near their own houses or the parks where they congregate. Some do it as part of a neighborhood group, while others clean parks and areas near temples for religious reasons. Good way to build community. On another note, let people read without pop-ups please.

I gave up cleaning the trash in my apartment courtyard as certain neighbors took it as an invitation to dump ever increasing amounts of trash (including entire kitchen sized trash bags) knowing "someone" would pick it up. Sometimes you just can't win.

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#42
post #25
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not going to stop a junkie from shooting up (without a comprehensive, life-changing program). So barring that, you might as well teach them how to be more safe so they don't end up in a hospital spending your tax money for emergency care... or worse, dead somewhere and likewise then consuming public funds to deal with it. [added] Since this is such a controversial topic, I would recommend reading about Portuga…

but it also sends the message that shooting up heroin is tolerated, even encouraged. it's like the people running the city have completely giving up on expecting any kind of standards of public decency or even upholding civilization itself. they gave up on collecting trash, they gave up on arresting thieves, they gave up building houses, they're considering whether to give up teaching calculus. nothing we can do! we'…

> but it also sends the message that shooting up heroin is tolerated, even encouraged

So what? An addict is going to shoot up whether it’s tolerated or not, and non-addicts aren’t going to take up heroin because they say a billboard. If you really want to end it, it’s going to need to be a lot more comprehensive, expensive, and expansive than the presence or absence of a billboard.

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#43
post #10

I just don't understand why throwing trash on the ground is tolerated. There is virtually no argument for why someone should need or be allowed to throw or leave their trash on the ground. Most of us manage to get clothes on before we leave the house each day, and that's a lot more complicated than just putting trash into a bin (or god forbid, carrying it until you reach a destination which has a trash bin). So there…

How law and punishment works: You can put death penalty for littering, but if you know you can get away with it because nobody is watching (and you don't care about it), you will continue doing it. The opposite a smaller fine but with good monitoring (where you know that you will get caught) is better.

Even better is getting the idea inside people's brain. "I don't litter, because this is how I am". There is a book titled "Made to stick" where they expose the case of Texas and the problem they had with littering. A campaign was made "Don't mess with Texas", basically everyone should police anyone who doesn't comply with this don't litter attitude. This was done by appealing to the ideal of what a Texan should be, through clever advertising and marketing. Never been to Texas btw :)

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#44
post #10

I just don't understand why throwing trash on the ground is tolerated. There is virtually no argument for why someone should need or be allowed to throw or leave their trash on the ground. Most of us manage to get clothes on before we leave the house each day, and that's a lot more complicated than just putting trash into a bin (or god forbid, carrying it until you reach a destination which has a trash bin). So there…

> I just don't understand why throwing trash on the ground is tolerated. There is virtually no argument for why someone should need or be allowed to throw or leave their trash on the ground.

It comes back to the policies around law enforcement adopted by SF. Since it is effectively the epicenter of progressive politics in the world, there are a lot of radical policies in play. One of them is "restorative justice", which claims to make criminals / law breakers less stigmatized and more able to constructively reintegrate into society. Personally, I feel the motivations are sincere and have good intentions behind them.

However in practice, that framework of restorative justice has been warped into something more like an us versus them narrative, where those who break the law are viewed as helpless victims while those who seek to enforce the law are viewed as oppressors. I think this is partly because of the divisive nature of American politics in general, and partly because of the extremist language used by some activists who support these policies.

While I agree there is no excuse for this, and it shouldn't be tolerated (alongside open drug abuse, shoplifting, defecating on the street, assault, armed robberies, burglaries, and so on), the reality is that the politicians elected in SF and people like Chesa Boudin (the District Attorney) are very much all-in on restorative justice. In effect, they've decriminalized most crimes. And unfortunately it is a two-tier justice system where law abiding taxpayers are subject to the penalties of the law, while criminals are somehow not subject to penalties.

As far as I can tell, the only practical way out for SF is for constituents to wholesale reject fringe progressive politics and return to moderate politics that is closer to the Clinton or Obama era left. However, I don't view that as being very likely despite all the complaints, simply because the voice of activists is louder and more feared than other voices.

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#45
I don't understand. I often hear about people making $200k, $300k a year in that city. I know that it's not everyone, but I think there are lots of people like that. Why is this problem not solved by the market? That may make a good YCombinator project, go to San Francisco-based tech companies, ask them (or the people in them) to give you money to clean the streets. Is this because there is no cheap labour in San Francisco?

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#46
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not going to stop a junkie from shooting up (without a comprehensive, life-changing program). So barring that, you might as well teach them how to be more safe so they don't end up in a hospital spending your tax money for emergency care... or worse, dead somewhere and likewise then consuming public funds to deal with it. [added] Since this is such a controversial topic, I would recommend reading about Portuga…

Would allowing nature to take its course and having them die really be that bad? It is better for society for them to not exist (in a peaceful manner ie not outright jailing/ worse) or for them to exist and harass innocent bystanders? Think about it this way, if they did not exist, and you had the power to create them, would would willingly/ purposefully create them? They are taking up resource that could be better s…

Please keep this sort of generic flamewar comment off HN. It will only lead to hell.

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#47
post #9

Its sad that 1) so many people just throw trash on the steet, 2) there is no law enforcement preventing this behavior, 3) the city isnt paying any people (in my area the prisoners do it from the jail) and then 4) that it has come down to the residents to come up with their own pool of money to pay for this... every week you read stories of the human feces on sidewalks, public urination, needles left on sidewalks, pub…

This is a also a city with a multibillion dollar budget and some of the highest in the country.

I'll be honest in my area I'm out in a suburban part a Florida about 50 miles outside of Tampa and people who are not from the area who are caught doing drugs and homeless people and all this kind of stuff what happens is the cops they tell them I don't want to see you in this county anymore and then what they do is they bring them to a road called county line road and then they drop them off there and if they come back they get arrested... so you just don't see homeless people and all that kind of stuff out where I live because I'm being serious that's how the cops are out here

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#48
post #42
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it also sends the message that shooting up heroin is tolerated, even encouraged. it's like the people running the city have completely giving up on expecting any kind of standards of public decency or even upholding civilization itself. they gave up on collecting trash, they gave up on arresting thieves, they gave up building houses, they're considering whether to give up teaching calculus. nothing we can do! we'…

> but it also sends the message that shooting up heroin is tolerated, even encouraged So what? An addict is going to shoot up whether it’s tolerated or not, and non-addicts aren’t going to take up heroin because they say a billboard. If you really want to end it, it’s going to need to be a lot more comprehensive, expensive, and expansive than the presence or absence of a billboard.

okay, how about we put up billboards saying

>When you smash a window to rob a store, be careful not to cut yourself on the glass. Wear thick gloves.

after all, a billboard is not going to stop a burglar, is it? and if we're going to have burglaries, it's better that the burglars don't injure themselves while committing their crimes, because after all it will reduce the burden on hospitals. it will also protect the store owners from liability!

I'm not a nietzchean but I start to sympathize with how zarathustra must have felt when he saw those pathetic last men, bleating about "harm reduction" as they huddled together for warmth.

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#49
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can stop a junkie from shooting up by imprisoning them, or better yet, putting them through drug rehab. Everything else is not a solution and only exacerbates the problem. There's nothing safe about staying addicted to drugs.

Putting a junkie in prison will indeed stop them, for the time they are in jail. But once they get out, they will return to the life they know. And then you're back with the original problem, but you've now also spent a ton of money to imprison them. Obviously there's nothing safe about being addicted to drugs. But there are certainly methods of drug use which have wildly varied risk levels. Same for other things - d…

portugal does arrest drug users, and drug dealers. the users get treatment and the dealers get punished, neither of which SF deigns to do.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1451913061380476932.html

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#50
post #45

I don't understand. I often hear about people making $200k, $300k a year in that city. I know that it's not everyone, but I think there are lots of people like that. Why is this problem not solved by the market? That may make a good YCombinator project, go to San Francisco-based tech companies, ask them (or the people in them) to give you money to clean the streets. Is this because there is no cheap labour in San Fra…

Great question. Maybe markets aren't a functional solution to problems of public commons? I can't think of a community problem where a market-based solution even helped, let alone solved the problem.
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