Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations • Hacker News Board

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#231

Post by Manuel_D » Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 11:17 PM UTC

dktoao wrote: post #132

finite_jest wrote: post #94

I think this is a good reminder that if you are male and live in a Western country, it is quite likely that you are being overtly discriminated against. It even has an Orwellian name: "affirmative action" [1]. Women may face other types of workplace discrimination, as the article also says, but when it comes to hiring and college admissions there is overt and (mostly) legal discrimination against men. This is support…

I see this hot take way too often and I take it that you didn't read any of your sources to see if they actually supported your claim. Because: [1] Yes, Wikipedia confirms that affirmative action is a thing societies across the world engage in it to try to have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society. And yes, in America since the practice became enshrined in law that m…

> [3] I could file a lawsuit against the state that says politicians are colluding with martian men to keep taco prices down. That doesn't make it true.

The details of the case are pretty damning [1]. Directly instructing recruiters to only hire diverse candidates [2]. Explicit quotas on gender and race [3]. Managers telling recruiter to only accept candidates from "historically underrepresented" groups [4].

1. https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/2/17070624/google-youtube-wi...

2. https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/25-aaf...

3. https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/26-5c5...

4. https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/28-f1c...

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#232

Post by dktoao » Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 11:18 PM UTC

b9a2cab5 wrote: post #219

dktoao wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I somewhat agree with your first point about ad-clicking, but I think there is some nuance that you are missing, primarily the fact that all of engineering isn't web design. However, I am fascinated to find that you think that engineering know how isn't a critical aspect of modern societies? Please explain. I agree that it isn't good that motivated and qualified people that really want to go to a top tier college are…

Engineering is critical, going to a top engineering school is not. Society does not need more engineers going to MIT and then taking a job at Google. Society does need more genius researchers pushing the boundaries of science, but I find it very unlikely that those people are not already admitted to top schools even in the absence of affirmative action. You can claim people have potential but potential doesn't cut it…

> Engineering is critical, going to a top engineering school is not

Totally agree, I would even go further and say that I think the "top tier" engineering schools are not better (actually I would argue worse because brilliant researchers aren't always brilliant teachers), they just are able to be a lot more selective with the people that they admit and that is probably the biggest factor on why they are perceived as elite. Which makes me roll my eyes at the whole "boo-hoo I didn't get into an ivy" culture that is driving all this resentment in the first place.

> Your basic premise is that the greater proportion a race is of the population, the more mono-cultural the population becomes

Yes and no. I am fully aware that just because I am white I am not of the same culture as another white person. And even more so are the differences between Asian cultures (I have lived and traveled in many parts of Asia). But if you take a general cross-section of people who look similar and live in the same geographical area, and compare them to a different group of people who look similar in the same area, you will find stark economic correlation between the two groups. This is why it is important to be conscious of the way that race is viewed and handled within a society. The argument that "I don't see color" is a very common sentiment amongst actual racists because

1. It makes them feel like they aren't a bad person

2. Conveniently allows them a free pass to not have to take a hard look at their ingrained racial biases

> Income based affirmative action

I agree, this to me seems like a much better metric for providing for affirmative action quotas, however:

1. It would result in very similar outcomes due to the economic correlation between racial groups

2. It could never happen because the American right would scream their heads off about socialism or whatever non-sense their propagandists spoon feed them.

3. Income != Wealth, and wealth is the real killer, so it also is not a silver bullet

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#233

Post by belorn » Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 11:21 PM UTC

_0w8t wrote: post #206

adolph wrote: post #149

I have a developing conjecture that in order to address the perceived problem of higher male per capita in certain occupations, attracting males into occupations with higher female ratios is as important as incentivizing female participation in high-male occupations. I'm no mathematician but I see it in terms of system numbers: Given a set of occupations with different sex ratios, to change the ratio of any specific…

There is an observation that men typically like to work with things while women with people all other things being equal. There are speculations that it depends on hormonal balance during pregnancy, but what ever the reason it exists. So by that software development naturally is dominated by men (code is the thing) while professions like veterinary (that pays higher in US than programming) is dominated by women (as m…

It is an possible theory, but in my view I tend to agree to an quite old theory that I saw referenced in an other Swedish study conducted by the department for higher education. They asked why so few men end up in the teacher profession, and the primary theory presented was based on a (if I remember right) 1950 study.

A person on average tend to be more comfortable and confident in decisions if its mimics behavior of people that look/are similar to themselves.

The teaching profession in Sweden actually start out with almost 50/50 during the first year at university. What the Swedish study found was that as students had setbacks, the students that decided to quit was mostly men. By graduation time a large portion of the male students has quit. Same thing occurs when people start seeking jobs, after the first year, second year, third year and fourth year. At the end the wast majority of men are gone from the profession, most citing "culture mismatch" and not feeling that they belong.

I find this theory much more plausible explanation than hormones, and it also explains why removing gender roles might increase gender segregation. If a person is uncertain where they fit, making a similar decision to other people in the same situation will on average feel safer. It also explain why mentor programs are one of the most effective tactics to combat gender segregation.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#234

Post by mbrodersen » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 1:26 AM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #204

MadeThisToReply wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all starts with the dubious (to say the least) premise that men and women are exactly the same. Both sexes on average want the same things, like the same things, are interested in the same things, and have the same priorities and proclivities. Therefore, in a just world, we'd see an exact 50/50 ratio of men and women in every possible occupation, because there are no differences between men and women, therefore th…

> Because biology plays no role in human psychology; we're the only species in the animal kingdom to come into this world with no pre-programming and absolutely everything that we do is the result of cultural conditioning. I suspect when these people finally cede on biological differences between the genders, they will just argue that these biological differences themselves are a product of our sinful and fallen worl…

Nope. All evidence shows that human psychology is a mix of biology and culture. That’s why you often see sisters and brothers being very different even though they were brought up the same way. Also, you can’t make somebody have a high IQ through culture. It is a biological trait. And your IQ has a high impact on how you perceived the world and learn.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#235

Post by mbrodersen » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 1:27 AM UTC

teachrdan wrote: post #201

logicalmonster wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are some professions receiving more attention than others when it comes to evening sex ratios. I think some people in the technology field unfortunately take everything at face value and are not really thinking about the various power plays in motion when it comes to persuasion and influence. I would point out that some people stand to make money and gain power off of promoting these views, and of course some e…

There's certainly a movement to recruit women into the trades: carpentry, electrical work, etc.

It will fail. It has failed in all countries pushing this hard. Just look at the Scandinavian countries.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#236

Post by mbrodersen » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 1:28 AM UTC

wrp wrote: post #209

ryanmarsh wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not been able to wrap my head around this issue. What is the thinking behind the desire to even sex ratios in various profession? Why are some professions receiving more attention than others when it comes to evening sex ratios. Is a perfect world when every construction site, hospital, and dreary programming job (lets be honest most of them aren't fun) has an even mix of the sexes? What is the benefit? Can some…

I think it is a matter of perceived status. Whenever I see complaint about lack of diversity in some field, it is something that is not only white-male dominated but also high status relative to similar endeavors. People who want to increase representation in higher status areas are trying to improve the perceived status of their cultural group. A type that I encounter is persons of some demographic who want to see g…

Yep exactly.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#237

Post by mbrodersen » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 1:30 AM UTC

bliker wrote: post #229

ryanmarsh wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not been able to wrap my head around this issue. What is the thinking behind the desire to even sex ratios in various profession? Why are some professions receiving more attention than others when it comes to evening sex ratios. Is a perfect world when every construction site, hospital, and dreary programming job (lets be honest most of them aren't fun) has an even mix of the sexes? What is the benefit? Can some…

My reading is that diverse teams are seen as more productive and innovative. Another angle could be that given how impactful technology is, women need the seat at the table to take part in shaping it.

Any evidence for this or is it just wishful thinking? The more diverse a group is the harder it is to communicate because of culture/language barriers. So it doesn’t seem to be obviously true to me.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#238

Post by mbrodersen » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 1:31 AM UTC

aaronax wrote: post #165

ryanmarsh wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not been able to wrap my head around this issue. What is the thinking behind the desire to even sex ratios in various profession? Why are some professions receiving more attention than others when it comes to evening sex ratios. Is a perfect world when every construction site, hospital, and dreary programming job (lets be honest most of them aren't fun) has an even mix of the sexes? What is the benefit? Can some…

A woman is interested in computers and gains skills in that area, then tries to get a job in the field. People making hiring decisions like their boys-club culture (maybe even subconsciously) so the woman doesn't get hired even though equivalently qualified, and somehow thinks or figures out that this is somewhat due to herself being a woman. Then the woman makes actions to fix this for herself and future women.

This is simply not true. Tech companies are leaning backwards to hire woman. I myself have gone out of my way to hire female software developers. And have hired quite a few who were excellent.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#239

Post by mbrodersen » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 1:36 AM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #96

dTal wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like pretty standard out-group stigmatization that you also hear applied to immigrants, people of color etc...

I don't know about stealing but is it not the case that most sex offenders are men? That seems like an actual risk wherase the accusations at play in racism are just made up.

Most violent criminals are men. So should we then ban men from doing any job and have woman doing all jobs in the world because it is safer? Really???

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#240

Post by mbrodersen » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 1:44 AM UTC

groby_b wrote: post #119

zeku wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is the kind of comment we have to stop if we are going to actually be able to push mens rights issues. You're using divisive language with your second sentence and poison pilling the entire argument by attacking feminists. This doesn't have to be a feminist vs whatever war, it needs to be a conversation around male issues and we need everyone at the table to make things better.

Speaking as a feminist - spot on. Feminism isn't about just swapping gender roles and just giving power to women. (As much as Sheryl Sandberg seems to believe it is) Which means that yes, the incarceration rates are (or should be, it's not like there's a feminist cabal I speak for;) concerning for feminists Not in the sense that we should simply incarcerate not women, but in the sense that we should desperately look…

Males are biologically more aggressive that females. Pick any random male and female and there is a 60% chance that the male will be more aggressive than the female. You can study this and speculate as much as you want but you are wasting your time. Last time I looked males can’t give birth to children but females can. Is that also a cultural bias that we can somehow change to be more “even”? Good luck with that.