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Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

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Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, and absolutely not. That's the exact same argument used against black people in US("most prisoners in US are black[0], therefore it's not racist to be afraid of black people, it's clearly in the data!") You can spin it any way you want - majority of sexual abuse happens with family members, so actually leaving a child with a stranger is a lot safer, if all you care about is statistical data /s [0] https://www.pew…

> majority of sexual abuse happens with family members, so actually leaving a child with a stranger is a lot safer This is the same argument used to argue planes are safer than cars, but there is a missing component: for individuals choosing which transport to take, they can evaluate the specifics of their case. If they know they are not a high-risk driver, the chance of dying in a car accident is much lower, but the…

> If they know they are not a high-risk driver

Nearly everybody sucks terribly at evaluating their own driving performance, and I have only met one or two people who have had their driving performance properly assessed by a trained evaluator.

TL;DR: no-one knows that they're a low risk driver, and the people who claim "I'm a safe driver" are often much worse than average.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#212
post #149

I have a developing conjecture that in order to address the perceived problem of higher male per capita in certain occupations, attracting males into occupations with higher female ratios is as important as incentivizing female participation in high-male occupations. I'm no mathematician but I see it in terms of system numbers: Given a set of occupations with different sex ratios, to change the ratio of any specific…

I've not been able to wrap my head around this issue. What is the thinking behind the desire to even sex ratios in various profession? Why are some professions receiving more attention than others when it comes to evening sex ratios. Is a perfect world when every construction site, hospital, and dreary programming job (lets be honest most of them aren't fun) has an even mix of the sexes? What is the benefit? Can some…

> I don't want my daughters sucked into dangerous oil field work prone to boom and bust cycles.

Are you implying that it is ok for your sons to be in such a field?

To answer your question though...

To establish a baseline, women get paid, as a whole, less than men for a particular job title (women doctor paid less than male doctor, women electrician paid less than male electrician). This is on a statistical basis when normalized for experience, location, etc. It may not be that eg. a particular iTunes team at apple has this imbalance, but across all industries, across all companies, across all locations, this statistic emerges. This is wrong, because men and women are equally deserving of money. Thats not politics, that's human decency. To quote an SNL skit "she made the unfortunate choice of career after getting a law degree. Instead of working a lawyer, she chose to work as a female lawyer".

Beyond this, women also tend to occupy jobs that pay less than men (teacher vs lawyer, nurse vs SWE, etc). This means, again, that as a whole, women in society have less money than men. People tend to be skeptical in the issue here because of the perception of choice a women has over her career. I (a man) have heard from countless women in engineering school and later as a professional that women are made to feel like they don't belong. My own mother (who has no reason to lie to me), an engineer, made the newspaper for being one of the first females licensed in her field. She told me countless stories of men passively trying to make her feel like she didn't belong. This sense of not-belonging means that the "choice" to work a lower-paid job is less of a truly independent choice and more of a societal nudge.

Now that there is some established evidence of why women make less than men, I'll let the reader decide if its wrong.

Now that we've decided it is wrong that women are paid less without choice, we should try to fix it.

How should we fix it? Lets get women into higher-paid job that's don't have many women! But which ones? Like you said, you don't want your daughters in oil fields, but surely you'd be much happier with your daughter in an office building somewhere typing at a computer? Maybe something with good WLB? Maybe without the need for a decade of education (and loans!)?

Great! SWE is a job that pays well, is safe, and has a generally "easy" way to enter - just a bachelors degree, and amble internships. Bonus is that all the equipment you need to learn is a computer (which most people have), so that's a lot easier to supply to poor kids who may have more trouble getting lessons.

Other jobs that are high-focus for female-occupation are doctors/lawyers/finance. Those jobs also pay well but have higher education requirements, or worse WLB, or are harder to get. But some (like doctors) have huge prestige. Who doesn't want their daughter to have a safe, high-prestige, well-paid job? No one is trying to get their daughter (or son!) to work on a crabbing boat - one of the most dangerous jobs in America!

TLDR: Why do we as a society focus on ending the professional gender ratio mis-alignment on certain jobs? Because no one wants those other jobs (for any gender really), and the goal is to get women equal opportunity for salary or equal prestige, and that is easier in some fields.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not been able to wrap my head around this issue. What is the thinking behind the desire to even sex ratios in various profession? Why are some professions receiving more attention than others when it comes to evening sex ratios. Is a perfect world when every construction site, hospital, and dreary programming job (lets be honest most of them aren't fun) has an even mix of the sexes? What is the benefit? Can some…

>Can someone explain this in logical, non-political, terms. Probably not, because it's ultimately a political phenomenon. In left-leaning circles it's popular to deny that there can be significant statistical differences between demographics for any reason other than discrimination. Based on that logic they view all unequal gender ratios as problems that need to be solved.

> a political phenomenon... In left-leaning circle

its a political phenomenon if you make it about left/right. There is evidence of discrimination society wide. That doesn't have to be political.

Discrimination is wrong and can be fixed.

In left-leaning circles, people accept that there is discrimination, regardless of other reasons.

In right-leaning circles, people deny that they or others have done anything wrong, and don't solve real issues encountered.

Source: There are lots of accounts of people being discriminated against in hiring or professional opportunities.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not been able to wrap my head around this issue. What is the thinking behind the desire to even sex ratios in various profession? Why are some professions receiving more attention than others when it comes to evening sex ratios. Is a perfect world when every construction site, hospital, and dreary programming job (lets be honest most of them aren't fun) has an even mix of the sexes? What is the benefit? Can some…

A woman is interested in computers and gains skills in that area, then tries to get a job in the field. People making hiring decisions like their boys-club culture (maybe even subconsciously) so the woman doesn't get hired even though equivalently qualified, and somehow thinks or figures out that this is somewhat due to herself being a woman. Then the woman makes actions to fix this for herself and future women.

> boys-club culture

Do you have examples of these practices?

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#215
post #149

I have a developing conjecture that in order to address the perceived problem of higher male per capita in certain occupations, attracting males into occupations with higher female ratios is as important as incentivizing female participation in high-male occupations. I'm no mathematician but I see it in terms of system numbers: Given a set of occupations with different sex ratios, to change the ratio of any specific…

> Given a set of occupations with different sex ratios, to change the ratio of any specific occupation the ratios of other occupations must also change.

Logically there is an alternative: one sex can withdraw from the labor market.

Male labor force participation is declining.[1] Female labor force participation is declining at a slightly lower rate.[2]

1. 80% -> 74.5%, 1990-2019. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.MA.ZS

2. 51% -> 47%, 1990 - 2019. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.FE.ZS

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#216
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't the Supreme Court of the United States rule that it had been effective, with their primary evidence being the election of Barak Obama? That's not a study but in terms of legal doctrine it seems to be a settled issue.

I'm not sure I take your meaning. Would you mind elaborating (not kidding - I don't quite get it)?

Here is a report on the ruling:

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/jun/25/supreme-court-vo...

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not been able to wrap my head around this issue. What is the thinking behind the desire to even sex ratios in various profession? Why are some professions receiving more attention than others when it comes to evening sex ratios. Is a perfect world when every construction site, hospital, and dreary programming job (lets be honest most of them aren't fun) has an even mix of the sexes? What is the benefit? Can some…

The simplistic version of the premise is more like: women are under-represented in occupations which have more money and/or power, and also within the more senior positions of all occupations (which also tend to correlate with more money and/or power), which must be because they are either discriminated against when seeking those positions, or because they are discouraged from seeking those positions by an expectatio…

This is simply not true. There are a highly paid professions in US that are dominated by women, like that of veterinarians (as I wrote on another comment it pays better in US than programming) or some fields in medicine or law.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#218
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an insightful point. > Personally I would argue that both race-crime and gender-crime statistics are largely or completely due to social factors. I think this is probably right too, but which social factors are you thinking about when it comes to sex offenses?

I think sex offenses are strongly related to "toxic masculinity" mindset (though, I don't like that name).

Why would you think that? The typical sex offender has a very clean façade, they are often social justice champions themselves because that makes it easier for them to hide what they do.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#219
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society I didn't realize making people click on ads was a critical aspect of society (FAANG firms use DEI tactics to preference URMs). Getting an undergrad education in engineering at a top school isn't a critical aspect either. Instead of focusing on white men, why don't you take a look at the stats around Asian men? Or Asians in…

I somewhat agree with your first point about ad-clicking, but I think there is some nuance that you are missing, primarily the fact that all of engineering isn't web design. However, I am fascinated to find that you think that engineering know how isn't a critical aspect of modern societies? Please explain. I agree that it isn't good that motivated and qualified people that really want to go to a top tier college are…

Engineering is critical, going to a top engineering school is not. Society does not need more engineers going to MIT and then taking a job at Google. Society does need more genius researchers pushing the boundaries of science, but I find it very unlikely that those people are not already admitted to top schools even in the absence of affirmative action. You can claim people have potential but potential doesn't cut it when one candidate took some community college classes and the other one won a national math competition.

> let's assume that the lawsuit's basic premise is correct

We don't need to assume, we can look at the makeup of UC and UW schools which are legally barred from using affirmative action and are similarly ranked. They average ~50% Asian.

> mono-culture

Your basic premise is that the greater proportion a race is of the population, the more monocultural the population becomes. Not only is that racist, but coming from what I assume is a white liberal it seems very hypocritical.

> responsibility to see to it that those who are not have an opportunity

I'm happy to support income based affirmative action. As we all know, parental income plays a far larger role in SAT scores and lifetime earnings than any systemic discrimination. But racial discrimination under the guise of affirmative action is a terrible idea that doesn't actually result in better outcomes. When you admit objectively less qualified people because of a quota those less qualified people end up doing more poorly down the line in the real world.

For example, even though CMU enforces a 50/50 male/female quota on its CS admits, the makeup of high paying jobs with people from CMU still ends up around the industry 80/20 male/female split, because the 20% that would have originally been qualified to get in without the quota end up doing just as well as their male counterparts that didn't have affirmative action benefits and the other 30% struggle to keep up because they weren't qualified in the first place.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#220
post #153
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't the Supreme Court of the United States rule that it had been effective, with their primary evidence being the election of Barak Obama? That's not a study but in terms of legal doctrine it seems to be a settled issue.

Perhaps you're thinking of Grutter v. Bollinger (2003) a case concerning affirmative action in admissions exercised by the University of Michigan Law School. The Supreme Court decided that favoring underrepresented minority groups did not violate the 14th amendment equal protection clause. Writing for the majority, Sandra Day O'conor said "race-conscious admissions policies must be limited in time," and said that the…

I'm thinking of this ruling: https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/jun/25/supreme-court-vo...
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