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Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

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Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#151

Post by beaunative »

zwieback wrote: post #31

The article goes farther, saying: "There was no evidence of discrimination against women in male-dominated professions or in mixed-gender professions, but the researchers did find evidence of discrimination against men in female-dominated professions." Sweden, though.

I'm not surprised. Woman who behave like man are often praised, considered better. Man who behave like woman are often moked at, considered less. (I meant like man and like woman as our society expects them not as that those beliefs are justified)

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#152

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

guerrilla wrote: post #96
dTal wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like pretty standard out-group stigmatization that you also hear applied to immigrants, people of color etc...

I don't know about stealing but is it not the case that most sex offenders are men? That seems like an actual risk wherase the accusations at play in racism are just made up.

Men are also far more often convicted of murder, arson, vandalism, assault, and so on. You would think those would be problems in any workplace, no?

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#153

Post by todd8 »

bdamm wrote: post #115
skulk wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under affirmative action is a hypothesis: that it reduces inequality among communities. Has the application of affirmative action been measured and compared to its outcomes? It's been a thing for about 50 years now, so I'd like to see some data.

Didn't the Supreme Court of the United States rule that it had been effective, with their primary evidence being the election of Barak Obama? That's not a study but in terms of legal doctrine it seems to be a settled issue.

Perhaps you're thinking of Grutter v. Bollinger (2003) a case concerning affirmative action in admissions exercised by the University of Michigan Law School.

The Supreme Court decided that favoring underrepresented minority groups did not violate the 14th amendment equal protection clause. Writing for the majority, Sandra Day O'conor said "race-conscious admissions policies must be limited in time," and said that the Court believed that in 25 years that limit might be reached. Ruth Bader Ginsburg agreed with the ruling but not with having a time limit.

I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what I'm talking about, so I suggest seeing the Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#154

Post by ryanlol »

JPKab wrote: post #87
endymi0n wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note the hypothesis about risk being a predominantly male trait is also consistent at the other end with men making up 90%+ of prison population in pretty much any form of government or society. I haven't heard many feminists argue for a female quota in prisons yet.

Nobody looks at the imbalance in incarceration rates and assumes that police and the justice system are systemically sexist against men, but they certainly draw that conclusion along racial lines based on the same outcome.

Funnily enough this has been extensively studied, the systemic sexism against men in the justice system is a proven fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_disparity

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337844261_Sentencin...

https://crimsoc.hull.ac.uk/2020/06/18/gender-differences-and...

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#155

Post by an9n »

bjourne wrote: post #121

I took a quick look at the comments on this article and I find it fascinating that almost every commenter accepts the study's conclusions at face value. Having been a HN reader for several years, I know how incredibly rare that is! The top voted comment is always something like "Correlation is not causation", "Yeah, but did the authors consider ?", or something about how the methods does not allow one to draw very fa…

> However! In this discussion, no one has yet offered the hypothesis that the purported discrimination against men could be explained by men being objectively less suitable to work in female-dominated professions than women. Perhaps men have less "emotional iq" than women or something?

Well, I'll bite. If you really want to go down this road we could also start talking about how women being given time off specifically for their menstrual cycle or menopause (the latter is being seriously discussed in the media etc.) when there are no equivalent allowances whatsoever for men (despite the fact that men die younger than women!) means that women are 'objectively less suitable' for work full stop. Have you stopped to consider why the HN audience may have reacted as they have, and aren't you in fact guilty of the very thing you are accusing them of, that is, jumping to a conclusion about their thinking etc?

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#156

Post by ryanmarsh »

adolph wrote: post #149

I have a developing conjecture that in order to address the perceived problem of higher male per capita in certain occupations, attracting males into occupations with higher female ratios is as important as incentivizing female participation in high-male occupations. I'm no mathematician but I see it in terms of system numbers: Given a set of occupations with different sex ratios, to change the ratio of any specific…

I've not been able to wrap my head around this issue. What is the thinking behind the desire to even sex ratios in various profession? Why are some professions receiving more attention than others when it comes to evening sex ratios. Is a perfect world when every construction site, hospital, and dreary programming job (lets be honest most of them aren't fun) has an even mix of the sexes? What is the benefit? Can someone explain this in logical, non-political, terms. Surely there's some benefit to individuals or society but I can't figure out what that might be. I don't want my daughters sucked into dangerous oil field work prone to boom and bust cycles. Why would that be ideal?

Help an autist out here.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#157

Post by treeman79 »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #110
vanderZwan wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More importantly: they looked at hiring practices . That's an extremely narrow view of the problem domain.

>"they looked at hiring practices. That's an extremely narrow view of the problem domain." While true, the hiring process itself has an outsized influence on the problem domain because everything else depends on it. If you discriminate during the hiring stage you can confidently assert you aren't discriminating elsewhere by sheer merit of not having hired the kinds of people you are charged with discriminating agains…

I found out after the fact that I was reluctantly hired, only with great stress because I was a white male of unspecified sexuality.

They complained several times about being forced to hire me because they were in desperate need of a qualified individual.

They were in deep technical trouble from over a dozen incompetent ones with one or more the “correct” checkboxes.

I cleaned up the mess they had made. Then promptly quit. Biggest bunch of bigots I ever met.

Female boss was extremely sexist and made it her mission to put me in my place. Owners thought this was great.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#158

Post by finite_jest »

dktoao wrote: post #132
finite_jest wrote: post #94

I think this is a good reminder that if you are male and live in a Western country, it is quite likely that you are being overtly discriminated against. It even has an Orwellian name: "affirmative action" [1]. Women may face other types of workplace discrimination, as the article also says, but when it comes to hiring and college admissions there is overt and (mostly) legal discrimination against men. This is support…

I see this hot take way too often and I take it that you didn't read any of your sources to see if they actually supported your claim. Because: [1] Yes, Wikipedia confirms that affirmative action is a thing societies across the world engage in it to try to have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society. And yes, in America since the practice became enshrined in law that m…

Well, I'm gonna let the personal attack part pass. Here's what I think about your points:

[1] So we agree that the practice exists, though we may disagree on whether it's moral or not.

[2] You are right in that it is in part cultural, but the effect of affirmative action also exists. (I think you would agree, otherwise, why not dismantle it and avoid the resentment that it brings about?) Also, culture is not autogenous.

[3] Again, you are right in that you can sue anyone for anything if you have the money. But I think the claims in the lawsuit have merit (although the process is probably legal). Do you believe the diversity trackers they mentioned do not exist?

[4] You have never seen someone use a footnote to share their anecdotes? :-)

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#159

Post by Out_of_Characte »

bjourne wrote: post #121

I took a quick look at the comments on this article and I find it fascinating that almost every commenter accepts the study's conclusions at face value. Having been a HN reader for several years, I know how incredibly rare that is! The top voted comment is always something like "Correlation is not causation", "Yeah, but did the authors consider ?", or something about how the methods does not allow one to draw very fa…

I think that's because the article/study doesn't provide alot of information and only reaffirms the previous study outcomes.

"There was no evidence of discrimination against women in male-dominated professions or in mixed-gender professions, but the researchers did find evidence of discrimination against men in female-dominated professions."

"female applicants had a 52.17 percent relative advantage"

"This study only captures discrimination at the initial stages of the hiring process at entry level jobs in Sweden"

>no one has yet offered the hypothesis that the purported discrimination against men could be explained by men being objectively less suitable to work in female-dominated professions than women. Perhaps men have less "emotional iq" than women or something?

No such thing could have happened even if that's the case, from the study: "the group belonging of the fictitious applicants is experimentally manipulated, most commonly by randomizing the applicant’s name." "Correspondence tests can naturally only measure discrimination at the initial stage of the hiring process and may understate the true extent of hiring discrimination if it occurs at later stages of the process."

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#160

Post by tuesdayrain »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #156
adolph wrote: post #149

I have a developing conjecture that in order to address the perceived problem of higher male per capita in certain occupations, attracting males into occupations with higher female ratios is as important as incentivizing female participation in high-male occupations. I'm no mathematician but I see it in terms of system numbers: Given a set of occupations with different sex ratios, to change the ratio of any specific…

I've not been able to wrap my head around this issue. What is the thinking behind the desire to even sex ratios in various profession? Why are some professions receiving more attention than others when it comes to evening sex ratios. Is a perfect world when every construction site, hospital, and dreary programming job (lets be honest most of them aren't fun) has an even mix of the sexes? What is the benefit? Can some…

>Can someone explain this in logical, non-political, terms.

Probably not, because it's ultimately a political phenomenon. In left-leaning circles it's popular to deny that there can be significant statistical differences between demographics for any reason other than discrimination. Based on that logic they view all unequal gender ratios as problems that need to be solved.

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