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Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

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Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#131
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't agree with that. Black people are heavily overrepresented in sports in the USA. I personally believe that this is partially due to some physical differences that makes them better at sports, and that even if the cultures were exactly the same, they would still be overrepresented (relative to their proportion in the total population). I intentionally chose programming as an example because it's an intellectu…

> But the idea that intellectual capacity is an essential difference between racial groups is /the/ white supremacist argument. Why do you believe that genetic differences suddenly stop at the brain stem? Most people who accept that genetic differences between subpopulations exist, also acknowledge that south-east Asians and Ashkenazi Jews are on average more skilled in STEM fields than "white" people. So much for wh…

Yeah, white supremacists usually do their best to ignore that part.

Do you believe race to be a real thing? Like there is some unifying trait between "white" people or between "black" people, besides a vague notion of skin colour and cultural similarity? Bear in mind that Italians and Irish used to be called nonwhite, that there are numerous different ethnicities in both Europe and Africa (including many African ethnicities that you likely would not call "black"), and that its extremely hard to isolate ethnic causes of variance from cultural ones?

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#132
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> True, but you have to admit that if all programmers were white that would be pretty suspect, and would hint that there may be something discriminatory as play. I don't agree with that. Black people are heavily overrepresented in sports in the USA. I personally believe that this is partially due to some physical differences that makes them better at sports, and that even if the cultures were exactly the same, they w…

> I don't agree with that. Black people are heavily overrepresented in sports in the USA. I personally believe that this is partially due to some physical differences that makes them better at sports, and that even if the cultures were exactly the same, they would still be overrepresented (relative to their proportion in the total population). I intentionally chose programming as an example because it's an intellectu…

> I intentionally chose programming as an example because it's an intellectual pursuit. Yes, people of different ethnicities can have different physical characteristics; that much is observable. But the idea that intellectual capacity is an essential difference between racial groups is /the/ white supremacist argument. Ie, the idea that white people are inherently smarter than black people. It's their justification for racial dominance.

How are intellectual pursuits different from sports pursuits, especially when it's one specific intellectual pursuit? And again, you make the jump from "white people are better at programming than black people" to "white people are more intelligent than black people".

> That is true, but it leads to statical variance across the board. If, for a large enough sample and controlled for mutable factors, white people are more successful at programming than black people, that is an essential trait. Given that we agree that race isn't an objective reality, race can't have essential traits, and thus statistically significant, categorical differences between outcomes must be caused by mutable characteristics like experience, education etc.

No, I think we disagree here. Race isn't an objective reality, but people still can have immutable differences between groups. For example, people with darker skin tend to lack vitamin D more easily in certain latitudes. This is an immutable difference with people with lighter skin. But that difference is a spectrum, and given a specific individual, you can't always put him in a "light skin" or "dark skin" group. What I reject with the idea of race is that everyone belongs to a specific race, and that you can draw clear lines between them. I don't reject the idea of immutable differences between people. I'm personally colorblind. I can't do anything about it. This makes my vision of color strictly worse than most people. But that's one characteristic. I also have brown eyes, which means I'm a bit less sensitive to the Sun than people with green and blue eyes. I belong to the "colorblind" and the "brown eyes" categories of human. But there's no "race" for that. White people have brown eyes and are colorblind. Black people too. But not all of them.

> How does a racial group be better at one field, categorically, unless either a) there are social differences like culture or access to education or b) there are essential, immutable differences between them? The important factor in racist reasoning is the idea that black people are less intelligent than white people. It's not true, but it's used to justify relegating them to a lower class.

Again, I don't understand why you're defending the idea that if there are immutable differences between people, one group must dominate the other. It's possible to accept that one group is better at something than the other without thinking that this group should dominate the other. And one field is not everything. I don't know many popular black programmers, and I don't know many popular white rappers. Who is the more intelligent here? Who should dominate who here? No one.

> We want this society now, except that differences in intelligence are not caused by race. So it's reasonable to investigate circumstances where outcomes are significantly different in order to understand what mutable systems and institutions could be changed to even the playing field so that capable black and white people can both succeed on merit.

I don't think we know for sure the origins of differences in intelligence between people. For example, IQ is highly inheritable, but malnutrition also reduces it a lot. That would mean that even if IQ was perfectly distributed in society between classes (which I don't think it is), the lower classes would slowly have a lower IQ because of malnutrition unless there's some sort of "safety net" against malnutrition. IQ isn't a perfect proxy for intelligence, far from it, but it's a start.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#133
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be an unpopular opinion: > Compared to programming and tech, success in a lot of fields in the humanities, including journalism is far more connected to who you know, what family you were born into, what college you went to, and your overall personal network. Is tech really that different? * When evaluating senior candidates one of the criteria that candidates are selected on is the prestige of their previou…

> Is tech really that different? Every profession has problems around social social proof. There are limited resources for recruiting and so heuristics that work get used. But I really can't think of any field that does better than tech in terms of keeping those barriers low relative to possible income and prestige. I know people who dropped out of high school making >300k/yr as software engineers, and god only knows…

Our experiences are fairly rare from what I've seen. Undoubtedly the door is open, but the weight of that door is still far too high and I would not give tech points in the category of meritocracy for that. Also worth mentioning that 300k is FAANG level compensation, and those salaries are fairly rare and not indicative of where most people with less-than-prestigious backgrounds end up (another commenter posted what I think is a fairly accurate average tale). Not to mention those salaries are often geo-centric.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#134
post #5

Somewhat related tweet thread from today: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1461633512344326146?s=21 Don’t talk to journalists (at least if you work in tech, but probably outside of it) - they’re not your friends and your incentives are not aligned with theirs (and they’re not looking to tell the objective truth). You’re better off writing your own articles about what you’re doing. They historically owned distribution…

Haha, you're all so fucking angry you don't have breathless useful idiots like Wu, Scoble, Kelly, Swisher, or Shirky dominating the tech press anymore. It's precious!

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#135
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the idea that intellectual capacity is an essential difference between racial groups is /the/ white supremacist argument. Why do you believe that genetic differences suddenly stop at the brain stem? Most people who accept that genetic differences between subpopulations exist, also acknowledge that south-east Asians and Ashkenazi Jews are on average more skilled in STEM fields than "white" people. So much for wh…

Yeah, white supremacists usually do their best to ignore that part. Do you believe race to be a real thing? Like there is some unifying trait between "white" people or between "black" people, besides a vague notion of skin colour and cultural similarity? Bear in mind that Italians and Irish used to be called nonwhite, that there are numerous different ethnicities in both Europe and Africa (including many African ethn…

> Do you believe race to be a real thing?

"Race" as in "the color of the skin allows statistically significant predictions about physical and mental aptitude"? No, that's a stupid categorization, because it's far too wide and imprecise.

However, I do believe there are (small) genetic differences between subpopulations from different geographic origins. For example, it's hard to deny that Kenyans have an unmatched edge in long distance running, one which can't be explained using non-genetic factors.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#136
post #13

Where's my PC Bullshit Bingo (TM) card? I need to cross off a couple of fields: 1) reducing "diversity" to "different skin colors" 2) fixating on the Third-Reich-esque concept of "human race" 3) insisting that skin colors can be neatly sorted into 4-5 discrete categories 4) lamenting the ratio between these categories, without stating what the correct ratio should be, and why

I would desperately love for somebody to tell me #4 and how they got there. Most modern (western) social narratives hinge on looking at high level distribution by sex/race/etc and declaring there’s an issue. Nobody is verifying the correctness of these distributions because there are so many confounds it’s nearly impossible, but they move forward anyways.

(Apologies if this is too much a personal anecdote for HN) Honestly, this is one of the indicators that forces my distrust of the modern family of social discourse. My own suspicions have a specific conversation in 2012 spooking a few hundred people (online), who lashed out with such odd phrasing that it spread contagiously to whoever they met... And formed the chimera movement we see now.

...I might outright have an alternate history of the entire '10s "Culture War". Or I might have gone paranoid. Of course I can't prove any of it. I'd love an answer to your first question myself.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#137
post #84
post #3

Isn't it a luxury to be able to put down money for a journalism degree tuition in the US? I think this may already be explained quite well for the US higher education system, how do these ratios compare to journalism degrees'?

A journalism degree is by no means a pre-requisite to working as a journalist. In fact, a fair number of people would argue it's a negative relative to real-world experience. I'm not sure any of the working tech journalists I know have a J-school degree.

How do they become journalists? Straight out of high school? Or there are non-university shorter courses they need to take?

I always thought that you even had to take an oauth to be a journalist, as the impact of the profession can affect the public opinion and therefore comes with a good amount of responsibility. To think someone without any qualifications can just start writing for credible news outlets seems quite scary to me.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#138

Compared to programming and tech, success in a lot of fields in the humanities, including journalism is far more connected to who you know, what family you were born into, what college you went to, and your overall personal network. In such an environment, it is unsurprising that there is a severe lack of diversity. I have never received a satisfactory answer for why a lot of people from these fields are all about "E…

>My conclusion is that there is no desire to increase participation in or accessibility to the field of journalism, because of a rejection of the Jevons paradox. And consequently, the shrinking field seems to rely heavily on credentialism and connections to choose who becomes a journalist.

As someone who has done both (and moved from journalism to engineering 4.5 years ago), I agree with the first half of your comment, but I disagree with this conclusion.

I do agree with you that we should encourage everyone to be a citizen journalist or copy editor, and to a certain extent, social media has done that -- much to the chagrin of many members of the public who then decry the state of the news media. There was a massive push by many of the leading journalism think tanks (Poynter, Niemen, CJR, Jay Rosen, Jeff Jarvis, etc.) more than a decade ago for citizen journalism and the rise of user-generated content directly led to news organizations like The Huffington Post and BuzzFeed, which in turn informed news and news techniques from the likes of the Times, the Washington Post, etc. And despite media being an utter and complete shithole, more people than ever want to be journalists. But that's not the whole story.

The problem, and the reason this isn't a rejection of Jevon's paradox, is that even though the appetite and potential audience for news has increased, the business models around news have collapsed. Larger outlets have managed to sustain, and in some cases like the New York Times, pivot themselves into even larger and more powerful centers -- but thousands more have gone out of business. There have been so many layoffs in the last few years (and at digital outlets too - not just antiquated local papers), it's beyond depressing. There were 16,000 layoffs in newsrooms (print, digital, broadcast) in 2020 [1], and even with the gains in digital organizations, there are still 30,000 fewer working journalists in the US today than in 2008 [2]

I don't blame tech for the death of the newspaper, for what it's worth, (although Craigslist and the expectation of everything online being free didn't help), the print industry did a lot of it to themselves. But even digital-first publications suffer to make a profit and become a business, and because the returns on a media investment are not ever going to be the 20x or 30x you get from a tech startup, the appetite for investors has wained and even well-funded outlets can go under or get sold for next to nothing.

So you have a flooded labor market and not enough jobs. And those jobs? Don't pay well. Which means that like a lot of other humanities, those jobs are largely taken by the people that can afford to do it, and there goes your diversity numbers. And in New York, DC, or San Francisco/LA (where US news bureaus are largely located), cost of living is insanely high. So you have kids who paid $180,000 for a graduate degree in journalism making $45,000* a year to work in New York City, where they have to live in a shitty apartment in Brooklyn with three other roommates. Or, they come from money and have parents who bought them an apartment.

From a monetary perspective, I did very well in journalism, especially for someone who was mid-career and not an executive editor. I make more than double in tech. And in journalism, I was making more than double some of my coworkers (close to 3 times for some of them). To be fair, I work at a FAANG, so I'm an outlier -- and I have some friends/colleagues/mentors who made/make more in journalism than I do in tech -- so at the very top, journalism can be lucrative. But in mid-sized cities, it's abysmal.

Part of the reason people encourage "everyone to learn to code," is that for now, the labor demand is larger than the supply and so salaries are high. That probably won't last forever, but it has definitely been the trend for a long time. And another part of the reason is that in general, society dismisses humanities as being less important. And yes, to your point, there probably is also a part of gate-keeping by the elites in those fields to keep it rarified, but I don't think that's the whole story.

Joshua Benton wrote a great piece for Nieman Lab (part of Harvard's journalism institution) last month that really encapsulates a lot of the diversity challenge and what changes need to happen to make things better [3], but what he doesn't touch on as much is the fact that once people are skilled to be journalists, the jobs and the pay just aren't there for many people, especially compared to other professions.

* Thanks to labor unions, the floor for entry-level newsroom jobs at at least major digital outlets is getting closer to $55k on average, but I still know of big places that hire people in at $45k. And people take those jobs even when they cannot really afford to live on that salary.

[1]: https://www.thewrap.com/2020-newsroom-layoffs-data/

[2]: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/13/u-s-newsroo...

[3] https://www.niemanlab.org/2021/10/its-time-to-create-an-alte...

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#139
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When their graph titled "Tech Journalism Is Less Diverse Than Tech" only shows "white" vs non-"white". When their statistic, introduced with "highlight of the results", only contains data points about "white" vs non-"white". There's not much else to this article. Therefore, the author reduces diversity to skin colors.

In the context of the article white and black are supposed to be races and says as much. There are “black people” who are light skinned, and there are people darker than “black people” who are not considered black.

> There are “black people” who are light skinned, and there are people darker than “black people” who are not considered black.

Wtf? That's literally the opposite of true. What's next, will you claim that there are "blondes" with brunette hair, and "dark-haired people" who are considered redheads?

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would desperately love for somebody to tell me #4 and how they got there. Most modern (western) social narratives hinge on looking at high level distribution by sex/race/etc and declaring there’s an issue. Nobody is verifying the correctness of these distributions because there are so many confounds it’s nearly impossible, but they move forward anyways.

Now that university enrollment is roughly 60% female, 40% male, there's very little outcry over this disparity and what little exists is drown out by the continued loud cries that universities are biased against women. It appears the ultimate ideal ratio is infinite of my group, zero of your group.

Actually they are focusing on the STEM fields now saying they enroll too many men.
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