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Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

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121–130 of 267 posts

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#121
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In France, we don't consider that people have a different race. Ah I thought the parent was saying that the Third Reich was into the "human race" in the "there is no race but the human race" colourblindness way, which threw me off. Yeah I agree, race is a social construct and ethnicity/culture are historical products. I'm British, I don't think we're quite as post-racial but the idea of black and white people being…

> True, but you have to admit that if all programmers were white that would be pretty suspect, and would hint that there may be something discriminatory as play. I don't agree with that. Black people are heavily overrepresented in sports in the USA. I personally believe that this is partially due to some physical differences that makes them better at sports, and that even if the cultures were exactly the same, they w…

> I don't agree with that. Black people are heavily overrepresented in sports in the USA. I personally believe that this is partially due to some physical differences that makes them better at sports, and that even if the cultures were exactly the same, they would still be overrepresented (relative to their proportion in the total population).

I intentionally chose programming as an example because it's an intellectual pursuit. Yes, people of different ethnicities can have different physical characteristics; that much is observable. But the idea that intellectual capacity is an essential difference between racial groups is /the/ white supremacist argument. Ie, the idea that white people are inherently smarter than black people. It's their justification for racial dominance.

> As soon as something involves skill, people will have different levels of success at it.

That is true, but it leads to statical variance across the board. If, for a large enough sample and controlled for mutable factors, white people are more successful at programming than black people, that is an essential trait. Given that we agree that race isn't an objective reality, race can't have essential traits, and thus statistically significant, categorical differences between outcomes must be caused by mutable characteristics like experience, education etc.

> No, this is not. You are making a jump between "a racial group is better at one field" to "a racial group is better than all the other groups", and again to "a racial group is better than all the other groups and should dominate them".

How does a racial group be better at one field, categorically, unless either a) there are social differences like culture or access to education or b) there are essential, immutable differences between them? The important factor in racist reasoning is the idea that black people are less intelligent than white people. It's not true, but it's used to justify relegating them to a lower class.

> Even if deep racial differences existed, I think we could still build a society where people are judged as individuals on what they accomplish

We want this society now, except that differences in intelligence are not caused by race. So it's reasonable to investigate circumstances where outcomes are significantly different in order to understand what mutable systems and institutions could be changed to even the playing field so that capable black and white people can both succeed on merit.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#122

Compared to programming and tech, success in a lot of fields in the humanities, including journalism is far more connected to who you know, what family you were born into, what college you went to, and your overall personal network. In such an environment, it is unsurprising that there is a severe lack of diversity. I have never received a satisfactory answer for why a lot of people from these fields are all about "E…

People say "everyone should learn to code" because that's where the money is. It's well understood that becoming a journalist is a cause of, not a solution to, financial woes.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#123
post #13

Where's my PC Bullshit Bingo (TM) card? I need to cross off a couple of fields: 1) reducing "diversity" to "different skin colors" 2) fixating on the Third-Reich-esque concept of "human race" 3) insisting that skin colors can be neatly sorted into 4-5 discrete categories 4) lamenting the ratio between these categories, without stating what the correct ratio should be, and why

When does the author reduce diversity to different skin colors?

When their graph titled "Tech Journalism Is Less Diverse Than Tech" only shows "white" vs non-"white". When their statistic, introduced with "highlight of the results", only contains data points about "white" vs non-"white".

There's not much else to this article. Therefore, the author reduces diversity to skin colors.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#124
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fixating on the Third-Reich-esque concept of "human race" what does this mean? I'm no historian, but I'm pretty sure the Third Reich was focused on the "German race", to the exclusion of all others. As for ratios, the ratio indicates an uneven pipeline. If idk, programmers were all white and highly rewarded, you might ask why that is. The reason can be one of two things: white people are culturally/systemically adv…

[flagged]

> Today's "diversity" champions are big on sorting people into genetically determined but superficial categories called "races", and make decisions based on those categories rather than an individual's character, qualifications, or merit.

If you're talking about affirmative action, the argument is that black people are held back in American society by historical and institutional racism (an objective fact), and thus are not operating on a level playing field. I think affirmative action is a bad response to that problem, but the problem it seeks to patch over is real.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fixating on the Third-Reich-esque concept of "human race" what does this mean? I'm no historian, but I'm pretty sure the Third Reich was focused on the "German race", to the exclusion of all others. As for ratios, the ratio indicates an uneven pipeline. If idk, programmers were all white and highly rewarded, you might ask why that is. The reason can be one of two things: white people are culturally/systemically adv…

>white people are culturally/systemically advantaged in getting those jobs (for example, those jobs are only available in predominantly-white areas or the education to do the job is more accessible to white people), or white people are more fundamentally capable of programming than others. The former is a social critique, the latter is white supremacy. Or: "white" culture emphasizes values that tend to produce people…

> This white supremacy argument is a disingenuous appeal to the extremely negative connotation

It's a perfectly reasonable argument, if not at times overfitted. In the US, zero (0) presidents have been born post-Civil Rights Act. In fact, Ruby Bridges [0] is only a year older than Bill Gates. So did Ruby's peers just happen to not produce programmers at the same rate as Bill's because they didn't "value" education? Hey, maybe it's true. Who knows? But the idea that a demographic whose grandparents had to be escorted by the national guard to protect them from white supremacist mobs on the way to get an education being behind in education has nothing to do with white supremacy, is ridiculous at absolute best.

> The pipeline problem is not merely a question of unequal opportunity, unless you deny minorities the agency to pursue their own interests.

So let's make the opportunity equal and see where the cards fall. Did the kids in my neighborhood and school find making computer games any less interesting than I did? No, but I could afford a computer. Guess where we are now, respectively.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Bridges

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#126
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When does the author reduce diversity to different skin colors?

When their graph titled "Tech Journalism Is Less Diverse Than Tech" only shows "white" vs non-"white". When their statistic, introduced with "highlight of the results", only contains data points about "white" vs non-"white". There's not much else to this article. Therefore, the author reduces diversity to skin colors.

In the context of the article white and black are supposed to be races and says as much. There are “black people” who are light skinned, and there are people darker than “black people” who are not considered black.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is more because a grad degree is a unnecessary expense for an American who wants an industry job, so the only Americans who go for grad degrees are people who want to be in academia. A masters contains a lot of repeated information from a bachelors, and many masters programs from "reputable" schools are now diploma mills that prey on international students willingness to pay large amounts of money an American de…

Advanced degrees also make getting certain visas easier. The relative value for spending money and two years on a Masters or six years of your life on a PhD is much higher if it carries with it a ticket to stay in the U.S.

I was going to say the same thing. Immigration into the US is extremely difficult if you aren't already famous/wealthy/well-connected, that if you want a visa, coming in through education is your best bet. And getting a job with a company that will sponsor your visa (to say nothing of one that will sponsor your potential green card) is already difficult, but being a student and having a graduate degree is a good incentive.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#128
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> True, but you have to admit that if all programmers were white that would be pretty suspect, and would hint that there may be something discriminatory as play. I don't agree with that. Black people are heavily overrepresented in sports in the USA. I personally believe that this is partially due to some physical differences that makes them better at sports, and that even if the cultures were exactly the same, they w…

> I don't agree with that. Black people are heavily overrepresented in sports in the USA. I personally believe that this is partially due to some physical differences that makes them better at sports, and that even if the cultures were exactly the same, they would still be overrepresented (relative to their proportion in the total population). I intentionally chose programming as an example because it's an intellectu…

> But the idea that intellectual capacity is an essential difference between racial groups is /the/ white supremacist argument.

Why do you believe that genetic differences suddenly stop at the brain stem?

Most people who accept that genetic differences between subpopulations exist, also acknowledge that south-east Asians and Ashkenazi Jews are on average more skilled in STEM fields than "white" people. So much for white supremacy.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#129
You see this phenomenon in policy development too.

My current favorite example is the AI ethics/policy space. A lot is being written by policy people about the "whiteness" of AI and those developing it. But most real world technical and research teams are actually remarkably diverse along many lines (I'm not saying there isn't still work to be done though).

Then you take a look at the AI policy/ethics space... for example, here's the team behind the Council of Europe's Ad-Hoc Committee on AI (CAHAI): https://www.coe.int/en/web/artificial-intelligence/cahai A couple hundred people, all but one who are from the same general demographic and rough age range. Yet it's these people who feel that their energy is best spent criticizing tech teams.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#130
post #91

Compared to programming and tech, success in a lot of fields in the humanities, including journalism is far more connected to who you know, what family you were born into, what college you went to, and your overall personal network. In such an environment, it is unsurprising that there is a severe lack of diversity. I have never received a satisfactory answer for why a lot of people from these fields are all about "E…

This may be an unpopular opinion: > Compared to programming and tech, success in a lot of fields in the humanities, including journalism is far more connected to who you know, what family you were born into, what college you went to, and your overall personal network. Is tech really that different? * When evaluating senior candidates one of the criteria that candidates are selected on is the prestige of their previou…

> Is tech really that different?

Every profession has problems around social social proof. There are limited resources for recruiting and so heuristics that work get used. But I really can't think of any field that does better than tech in terms of keeping those barriers low relative to possible income and prestige.

I know people who dropped out of high school making >300k/yr as software engineers, and god only knows how many college drop outs (myself included) who are also making that kind of money.

Conversely, people I know who went to law schools that are not one of the top 10 in the country are never even considered for high paying jobs in their industry. If a path to those jobs is available, it does not appear to be widely known, unlike the path to big tech.

Yes, without social proof getting your start is harder, and all else being equal ivy league grads will always have a leg up on you, but these are some truly phenomenal opportunities for people to climb the ladder.

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