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I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

freddiedeboer.substack.com

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Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#141

Post by weeblewobble »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #124
zepto wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Malcolm Harris doesn’t say what commitments DeBoer is breaking. He would be more credible if he did.

The linked Twitter thread includes Harris saying, > I would def settle for never having to think about it again, but clearly Freddie isn't going to "go away" like he first promised he would, so I'm sorta stuck here with that while he cashes in on self-pity. And, if you click on the 2018 link, Harris quotes DeBoer writing > I have abandoned all social media permanently. I have stopped freelance writing. I have in gene…

It's worth emphasizing the specific commitment to "permanently remove myself from online life." Rather than live up to that commitment and allow Harris to move on, Freddie has decided not only to remain Extremely Online but to keep re-hashing the situation over and over again. It certainly undermines the original apology, and make Harris look like a chump for being so graceful about it.

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#142

Post by beebmam »

zajio1am wrote: post #105
beebmam wrote: post #27

Certainly I'd like to think there's a special place in hell for those who accuse innocent people of sexual abuse; there's not much worse that one can be accused of. Mental illness or not, there's no excuse for these kinds of false accusations. It's certainly understandable given Freddie's condition. But us understanding why it happened doesn't ethically justify their actions, and it also doesn't relieve the perpetrat…

> I don't want them to have any sort of public social power, given their capability to totally ruin an innocent person's life Who are ones that ruin an innncent person's live? It is one who falsely accused, or those who immediatey accept such accusations instead of wait for result of investigation? In some sense people of sound mind who uncritically accept such accusation and act on that have more responsibility for…

He's not innocent, by his own admission

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#143

Post by lazyasciiart »

phkahler wrote: post #99
tptacek wrote: post #11

It is not, in fact, "unambiguously a lie" to relate to others deBoer's grave (and admitted, and unambiguously real) misconduct without the full context of his mental illness. People are entitled to form their own opinions about deBoer's credibility, and he is not entitled to set conditions on how they do that.

>> It is not, in fact, "unambiguously a lie" to relate to others deBoer's grave (and admitted, and unambiguously real) misconduct without the full context of his mental illness. Coincidentally I've been discussing this very issue the past week. I asked the question "when is it lying to say something that is true?" The example I gave someone was this: You sleep in and arrive late to work. When asked "why are you late"…

When it becomes not true if you explicitly add the words that the speaker knows the listener inferred in the communication context. In your example, those implied words are "The reason I was late is".

The difficulty is in agreeing on or proving what those words were in that specific context, and whether the speaker knew it. It could instead of a case of mismatched assumptions based on different cultural backgrounds, which you see addressed in a lot of advice about working in other countries.

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#144

Post by ryan93 »

newbie789 wrote: post #76

This is genuinely hilarious, like truly and deeply funny. I’m not familiar with this guy or the 2017 incident but based off of a cursory Google it looks like he’s kind of famous for having ~ edgy opinions ~ about race and intelligence. It’s entirely likely that people dislike him for this reason and not because of some old tweets. This piece is some amazing performative bullshit that somehow accuses anybody that disl…

He very clearly states he believes there is no difference in IQ between different races. But yes he does ascribe a lot of importance to intelligence.

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#145

Post by lubujackson »

pezzana wrote: post #7

> But in fact I had not intended to cancel Harris; I hadn’t intended anything at all. I would have attacked him, physically, had he been present, over a pure delusion, which I say with shame I can’t put into words. But I was not thinking that I would hurt his reputation. I was not thinking of cause and effect in any conventional way. I was not in a mental state where I was capable of understanding long-term consequen…

The author should know that this attitude does absolutely nothing for anyone.

Throwing blame back on other people for not understanding your hardships is self-serving and a fundamentally dismissive attitude. Mental issues do not absolve actions. You feel that you are not fully responsible for your actions and that is actually fine - but as a person who caused harm you should own your ACTIONS, full stop.

"I fucked up. I had a mental break and caused hurt to others.I am sorry for those actions and I am working to better handle my mental issues."

Since they ask at the end what people want, it is simply that. Accept that you are the person that did these acts and hurt others. Forgive yourself for doing it, (internally) but don't deny responsibility.

If it helps, blame your Public Self for being an asshole while your True Self can empathize with those hurt by Public Self. Right now you can't empathize because you are so concerned about deflecting blame from yourself. But blame is shitty and doesn't help anything - ignore blame and accept responsibility for your actions.

Things can't improve until you do that first.

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#146

Post by lazyasciiart »

newbie789 wrote: post #123

Legitimate question to the folks on here that are defending this guy: What are your thoughts on this guy’s (thoroughly spelled out) views regarding race and intelligence? I’ll start: I think his opinions are wrong and bad, and I sincerely doubt that the people that take issue with him do so explicitly because of what to place in 2017. This strikes me as a deliberate misdirect to enable his victimhood. And to answer h…

I could not disagree with his opinions more. I think it's perfectly reasonable for him not to want people to pass around stories of what he did when psychotic, I also think that plenty of people may not take issue with him because of this bipolar episode, but that they are willing to use it in an effort to discredit him.

I also think that you are unreasonably dismissing the possibility that people take issues with him for reasons other than his opinions. Your contributions in this thread seem to argue that one can either think his mental illness is a cunning distraction and irrelevant because he is such a bad person OR his opinions are good. It is a bad argument.

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#147

Post by hitekker »

lliamander wrote: post #118
xbar wrote: post #116

I think he denies his own agency and is angry about it, but also he is angry that someone else tried to assign a particular agency to him. Fair enough. I revoke my opinion that he had any agency. Further, I revoke the my notion that at any moment he had agency over his actions, including the drafting of this particular article. It is a horrible disease that takes away the I-ness of I. I am in relationships with the d…

He is explicitly admiting that he has agency and culpability. How did you come to the exact opposite conclusion?

Nope, he's admitting something in one sentence, denying it in another sentence, and using twisted wordplay to convey the impression of repentance without any of its substance.

As the GP indicated and other commenters pointed out, he's trying to play on our sympathies for mental illness in an incoherent attempt at regaining social status.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29270427

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#148

Post by ineptech »

newbie789 wrote: post #139
ineptech wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thoughts on the whole race/IQ debate: it's more or less a perma-banned topic on most forums where constructive debate takes place, and your comment is an excellent example of why.

Sorry, I’m genuinely confused here. I asked his defenders if they support his views on race science, and brought up the possibility that people dislike him for reasons other than the 2017 event. Your position is that it’s impolite to bring up a writer’s body of work because… why? Edit: It’s kind of hard not to interpret your post as “I believe in race science and it makes me uncomfortable to be asked a question like…

> Your position is that it’s impolite to bring up a writer’s body of work

No, just that one topic. It has this uncanny ability to produce unconstructive discussions where people talk past each other and accuse each other of all manner of things they didn't say...

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#149

Post by newbie789 »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #146
newbie789 wrote: post #123

Legitimate question to the folks on here that are defending this guy: What are your thoughts on this guy’s (thoroughly spelled out) views regarding race and intelligence? I’ll start: I think his opinions are wrong and bad, and I sincerely doubt that the people that take issue with him do so explicitly because of what to place in 2017. This strikes me as a deliberate misdirect to enable his victimhood. And to answer h…

I could not disagree with his opinions more. I think it's perfectly reasonable for him not to want people to pass around stories of what he did when psychotic, I also think that plenty of people may not take issue with him because of this bipolar episode, but that they are willing to use it in an effort to discredit him. I also think that you are unreasonably dismissing the possibility that people take issues with hi…

Wait. What?

He publicly holds very polarizing (and ridiculous) views on issues that directly affect people’s day to day lives, but I’m not thinking straight because I don’t immediately buy the idea that he’s _just_ being bullied for other reasons?

Maybe folks that he victimized during his psychotic break could also hate him for his opinions, but that’s not really a possibility that he mentions. The tone of good article is such that he implies that the main thing that contributes to people not wanting to consume his writing is a singular event 4 years ago. People seem really averse to admitting that maybe, as a human being, he’s not only a victim of bullying from an old event, but also just experiencing the predictable professional fallout from having ghoulish ideals and peddling truly harmful nonsense.

Or am I supposed to care more about the arbitrary, possibly imagined bullying than the plain-as-day “yeah I can see why folks would hate this guy” thought that occurred to me as soon as I read his stuff?

This whole blog post is a petulant child stamping his feet and crying out that it’s unfair that he’s not as well liked as he feels entitled to be. Sorry if that’s not something that I feel overwhelmed with the urge to capitulate to.

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#150

Post by newbamboo »

spadros wrote: post #42
newbamboo wrote: post #21

I like Freddie despite his mental problems/communism. His heart usually seems in right place even if his brain isn’t working right. But when he say his “psychotic disorder is harder on me than it is on you” it sounds a bit like the guy who beats his wife while saying “it hurts me more than it hurts you.” Destigmatization should not be a license for communism/cancel culture.

I think he argues quite harshly against himself and says that his actions cannot be excused. He seems to harbour quite a bit of guilt and shame around this topic. For context, bipolar is one of the highest suicide risk diseases due to this. When you come out of a manic episode you tend to feel intense shame and guilt for your actions. For reference, 1 in 2 bipolar will attempt suicide in their life. 1 in 5 will succe…

Excellent point. I would delete my comment but I don’t have enough karma or whatever. I guess we all do things we regret.
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