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German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

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Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#321

Post by merb »

sofixa wrote: post #170
earthnail wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Munich. As much as I would've liked that project to succeed (I really did), I can tell you that Limux - that was the project's name - was a brutal usability disaster. As in, almost meme-level bad. It's like the Berlin airport in software. Sure, Microsoft has a huge office in Munich, and they definitely applied political pressure, too (it'd be naive to assume they didn't). The project's stated goal was to be…

Wasn't that only initially, and was drastically improved later on? Even Accenture (the biggest Microsoft partner)'s audit didn't conclusively say that switching back to Windows will be better than what Limux was at that point. Furthermore, the French Gendermerie is using Linux at a similar scale, and there are no usability problems. If they can make it work, i don't think it's impossible for anyone else.

> "Accenture (the biggest Microsoft partner)"

actually accenture's biggest partner is not microsoft, it's money. really, they would sell their employees souls for money.

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#322

Post by necovek »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #283
GekkePrutser wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh "users can't install software themselves" is how things are supposed to be. If you're still giving everyone admin rights you're going to have a fun time every time one of them falls for phishing.

In my experience I would say that limiting users in this way, unless they have a very standardized workflow and will never be expected to deviate from it, is a terrible idea. Most of the risks you're actually afraid of don't need local admin to do significant damage. Locking people out of their local OS just protects the local OS (which is trivially reimaged), not their documents, and not the resources they have acce…

This is also why I always complained that no-root-by-default is not particularly advantageous for Linux way-back-when: basically, stuff I care about is in my $HOME.

Main driver to want a Free Software system for public institutions is that it's a Free Software system, allowing for local companies to participate in development and fairly compete to only add on to the software, avoiding the entire provider lock-in.

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#323

Post by pasabagi »

GravitasFailure wrote: post #313
pasabagi wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess specialized equipment isn't really the analogue for most software. Most software is a bit like a hammer - a generic tool with worldwide application. I can see the closed-source approach working for really complicated subdomains (like a geometrical constraint solver) where you really can't fix it unless you're immersed in the relevant maths - but that's just not what most software is, or where most bugs lie. A…

>I can see the closed-source approach working for really complicated subdomains (like a geometrical constraint solver) Ha! Funny you should bring that up. CAD is one of the reasons why I don't run Linux as my daily driver and I just don't see the current projects ever catching up with companies like Dassault or Autodesk thanks to the size of their teams. Overall I think I agree with your assessment, there's nothing t…

CAD is really emblematic of the tragedy of closed-source. The few times I've used it, it's been obvious that the solidworks constraint solver is amazing, but the interface you use to work with it is a kind of horrible design-by-committee abomination. In the open-source world, solvespace has a way less good (fast/robust) constraint solver, but the interface is obviously made with care and love.

It feels like a lot of closed-source software is like that. They have a few core components that are simply gorgeous, then over them, they just tack an inordinate amount of trash.

Stuff like geometry libraries, math libraries, etc are just so universally applicable that it makes sense to treat them like infrastructure. Treating them like secret sauce is such a waste.

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#324

Post by deknos »

necovek wrote: post #318
deknos wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm from Munich. As much as I would've liked that project to succeed (I really did), I can tell you that Limux - that was the project's name - was a brutal usability disaster. As in, almost meme-level bad. It's like the Berlin airport in software. Bullshit > The simple truth is that Microsoft's products were/are just far superior than what the Limux initiative shipped. The Linux transition caused massive productivi…

It'd greatly help if you focused on the arguments you want to share — I understand the frustration from someone claiming your work is "subpar", but this way your message gets lost altogether.

Well, when others overreach, why should i not be allowed to overreach? otherwise it's tonepolicing. when people ask neutrally i explain neutrally and i am polite..

but "brutally disaster" is almost slanting in my eyes.

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#325

Post by deknos »

ruph123 wrote: post #269
earthnail wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Munich. As much as I would've liked that project to succeed (I really did), I can tell you that Limux - that was the project's name - was a brutal usability disaster. As in, almost meme-level bad. It's like the Berlin airport in software. Sure, Microsoft has a huge office in Munich, and they definitely applied political pressure, too (it'd be naive to assume they didn't). The project's stated goal was to be…

I always wondered why they had to create their own fork. I had the feeling that this is unecessary maintenance work that they took on and a "not invented here" philosophy. Why not just use one of the avaible distros or why not even make a deal with SUSE (a bavarian company) to have a subscription model with support directly from experienced distro makers? Surely they could've made sure that all important features and…

because back in the day, no distribution was good enough for our needs. today is a completely other situation.

redhat might, but they borked it somehow as they said we would not be allowed to change anything or loose all support. at least that was what i heard.

and then there was supposedly the decision "we do not want any external company due to the bad experience with microsoft".

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#326

Post by deknos »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #271
earthnail wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Munich. As much as I would've liked that project to succeed (I really did), I can tell you that Limux - that was the project's name - was a brutal usability disaster. As in, almost meme-level bad. It's like the Berlin airport in software. Sure, Microsoft has a huge office in Munich, and they definitely applied political pressure, too (it'd be naive to assume they didn't). The project's stated goal was to be…

I think the truth between what you say and the other person accusing you of being biased is somewhere in the middle. They basically went too mach ahead of the time. Mind you, the project started 18 years ago! The computing landscape was very different back then. I know what you mean as I was forced by my employer to use Linux on the desktop at that time and it was mediocre - but many things changed in the meantime. P…

the hardware thing was not a problem for us as we could dictate which computers were bought. so computers were bought which would be compatible.

our problem was: none of the tools we needed were available in the quality and richness as they exist today.

automatic deployment to hundred of PCs at the same time with extensive automatic configuration? session and configuration management per user?

departments want to use different backgrounds per house or subdepartment. all that stuff had to be built in a scalable way.

the solutions today were not available back then.

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#328

Post by aembleton »

nick__m wrote: post #281
aembleton wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fingerprint reader does not work in Manjaro.

If you have "supported" hardware, the Arch wiki probably have a solution to that problem: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Fprint

Yep, I've looked at that and my hardware isn't supported.

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#329

Post by DocTomoe »

pas wrote: post #265
mlry wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, if you find the story of BER hilarious and troubling you should read up on the 2021 vote for federal and local parliaments. Or the civil administration there in general where you have to make an appointment to get your passport renewed months in advance.

> 2021 vote for federal and local parliaments tldr?

Some people are unhappy with the results.

One candidate was generally hated by the public and got fucked by the press with "creative photo editing", badly.

One candidate was poised to become the first green chancellor, but then managed to have not one, not two, but three case of academic fraud and lying about her past tacked to her ticket. Her party came in second.

One candidate was all about some nebulous idea of "freedom", which made him relevant enough that his party now is king maker, when the first-time voters, who traditionally would go to the Green Party, decided enough Covid Lockdowns is enough.

And one candidate did ... nothing. Absolutely nothing. Which means he also couldn't embarrass himself (even though historically, he's a ... problematic ... figure). This guy came in first, so he's going to be the next chancellor.

And that's just the candidates. Then you got the State of Berlin obviously unable to hold democratic elections, given

- there was a lack of ballots in many voting offices

- in some voting offices, there were ballots for other districts, which rendered those votes invalid

- they accidentally allowed 16-year-olds to vote in the federal elections (where you have to be 18 to vote)

- they accidentally gave a mandate to the wrong guy, who shared the same name, but not the same party affiliation with the actual winner

- some votes were cast after 18:00, which is the official cutoff date

- in some districts, there was a 150% participation rate

- some offices sent people waiting in line home because "it's unlikely you'll be in in time"

- ... I am sure I am missing a few catastrophes - a LOT went wrong in Berlin ...

It was hilarious to watch this mess unfold.

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