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German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

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Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#151

Post by jlkuester7 »

marcodiego wrote: post #47

Hope this encourage them to invest in improving OOXML compatibility. I think right now this is the biggest reason people avoid LibreOffice. Also, some action must be taken about MS behavior. They are the same company they were in the 90's. It is easy to find commit messages in LO explaining things like 'this is what MSO does but not what the specification says'. They recently change the algorithm the justifies text i…

Does anyone know of any large-scale implementations of https://www.onlyoffice.com/ ? I wonder if that suite would be a better solution than LO simply because it is OOXML native (unlike LO which AFIK is ODF native and has a conversion layer to be compatible with OOXML). I think that OO's feature set is still limited in comparison to LO, but they are making a lot of progress (and being web-native seems like a huge advantage as well).

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#152

Post by FpUser »

Folcon wrote: post #48
nivenkos wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used Linux full-time at home for 10 years, and now at work (in an enterprise). For the most part, it works well and doesn't require a whole lot more support. The LTT video hit one specific packaging bug in PopOS that was present for only an hour, and was unfortunate. But to judge so much on that is unreasonable, shit happens in software engineering, it'd be like trying to use Facebook in the window where it was…

As someone who used to be an avid linux desktop user, but has subsequently moved away from it and is interested in the current ecosystem with a view to maybe coming back, what would you say is a good entry point? I used to run Ubuntu back in the day if that helps. I'm curious to get a sense of how much has changed.

I use Ubuntu and Linux Mint as my Linux Desktop. While I write enterprise backend server software for Linux ( C++ usually) I am far from being anywhere near "the Linux Expert". Most of my Linux development / debugging is done using Visual Studio (the real one) and Visual Studio Code right from the Windows Desktop.

Still I do some work on Linux Desktop. For example I am using Linux Desktop and Lazarus / Freepascal Combo to develop Linux Desktop GUI applications.

From my experience go with majors - Ubuntu and Mint. My reason for it is that those have most answers on Internet when doing search. Easiest to find packages for as well. Every time I tried something more exotic I was stopped by having to deal with the different package management and way more hassles to find up to date software packages I need or trying to build from sources. I am sure the "experts" could solve it but I have better things to do with my life and am not willing to learn some not really exciting stuff just for the kick of it.

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#153

Post by gorgoiler »

One doesn’t even need to ship the change. Having a viable alternative (ahem, BATNA) is all that’s required to improve the terms of the original deal.

Or to put it another way: as long as you let Microsoft think they are without competition, you will get an awful price.

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#154

Post by aimor »

How do the workers feel about these changes? I hate being told what tool to use. I've worked in computer labs where the admin had very strong opinions on what software was good and only installed those tools, no alternatives. It stinks. Imagine for yourself being told you can't use Jetbrains IDEs anymore, but hey there's VS Code and that does the same thing you'll get used to it! Some people won't care, some will adapt, and some will be miserable. If this type of transition isn't responsive to feedback people will find terrible workarounds like using the one unmaintained Windows machine kept around the office or doing work on a personal computer.

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#155

Post by bubblethink »

heurisko wrote: post #147
RedShift1 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your arguments but the Linux desktop sucks, I would never want to use it full time let alone support it (note that I used to be a full time Linux desktop user, I left after KDE 4 came about). Linus Tech Tips is running a series on desktop Linux and they are hitting the hammer on the nail where exactly all the pain points are.

My favourite desktop is the Unity desktop by Canonical, which used to be the old Ubuntu desktop. I felt like I could tell they were building it for actual users. There were things like the corner pixels activating logout, so you could just drag your mouse straight to the corner of the screen. It also ran well on old hardware. Ubuntu moving to the Gnome interface again was a step back in my opinion, but it shows what…

Ditto. Unity still works but is increasingly broken and will never work on wayland. However, kde plasma can be made to work like like unity. I recently went through this exercise a couple of days ago, and I think I'll be able to manage with plasma once unity dies.

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#156

Post by rightbyte »

rich_sasha wrote: post #140
cardanome wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly does not work? What Distro were you using? Serious question because my experience is that I install Linux Mint and everything just works. Updates never break anything. Why should they? The only arguable pain point is maybe graphics drivers but honestly installing proprietary ones is just a few clicks these days. Plus you don't need them for office work anyway. (Maybe also some power saving features on ce…

I recently installed Ubuntu on an old laptop. Everything worked for a week. Then the touchpad stopped working. There are many pages telling you how to debug a touchpad. I tried various incantations of installing, reinstalling, uninstalling drivers, one set or another. I ran some special commands to capture messages coming out of the touchpad - showing it actually, at some level, worked. Just didn't move the mouse. No…

I believe the hardware stores state internally somehow.

I dual booted a laptop Ubuntu/Windows for a while. And if a closed down Windows with the power cable connected then the NVidia card would not work in Ubuntu.

The touch pad probably need some magic numbers to reset some state.

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#157

Post by dmitriid »

pasabagi wrote: post #68
nivenkos wrote: post #24

Now switch to Linux too. The more we invest together, the easier it becomes. German states can help Spanish states, and Finnish schools, Danish universities, and French businesses, etc. - collaboratively investing so that everyone benefits and Europe can build its own Tech industry and have some independence from the US. This is absolutely critical to move away from the dominance of "Big Tech" to FOSS solutions that…

Aside from the obvious strategic/people power side of it, honestly, I think being a user of closed-source is just the wrong model for a big organization. Ultimately, closed-source software is like running a factory with a machine you aren't allowed to repair. Having your core means of production and security essentially at the mercy of somebody else's support team seems kind of insane to me. I get the point in the 90…

> Ultimately, closed-source software is like running a factory with a machine you aren't allowed to repair.

That... that is exactly how factories operate. When something breaks, they call the manufacturer to bring someone in to fix it.

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#158

Post by jlkuester7 »

shireboy wrote: post #97

I'm in a position to recommend similar for a large organization, but am on the fence. They have SharePoint on-prem and Office, and are being pulled to Office 365 by MS sales folk. I'm definitely pushing to linux containers for apps, etc, and part of me wants to recommend Libre. There's a lot not to like about Office and SharePoint, but I've yet to find decent open-source document management software that does all the…

Also wanted to add my +1 for NextCloud + OnlyOffice! They integrate well and honestly IMHO have reached a maturity where a "normal" user should have no problems (if your people can handle the insanity of SharePoint, NC is nbd).

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#159

Post by earthnail »

formerly_proven wrote: post #73
nivenkos wrote: post #24

Now switch to Linux too. The more we invest together, the easier it becomes. German states can help Spanish states, and Finnish schools, Danish universities, and French businesses, etc. - collaboratively investing so that everyone benefits and Europe can build its own Tech industry and have some independence from the US. This is absolutely critical to move away from the dominance of "Big Tech" to FOSS solutions that…

Munich did that a few years ago, which got rolled back after they elected the dude mayor who got Microsoft to move their German headquarters to Munich. Completely unrelated events, of course. There were of course some technical problems as well, e.g. because a number of administrative tasks can only be performed using Excel 2003 with VBS macros enabled and stuff like that, as well as "technical problems", like "users…

I'm from Munich. As much as I would've liked that project to succeed (I really did), I can tell you that Limux - that was the project's name - was a brutal usability disaster. As in, almost meme-level bad. It's like the Berlin airport in software.

Sure, Microsoft has a huge office in Munich, and they definitely applied political pressure, too (it'd be naive to assume they didn't). The project's stated goal was to be a showcase of how Linux can work in the public sector. But because of that goal, there was also massive political pressure the other way around.

The simple truth is that Microsoft's products were/are just far superior than what the Limux initiative shipped. The Linux transition caused massive productivity losses in the municipality's administration. It's easy to say that VBS macros are evil, but if you migrate away from them, you need to provide an alternative.

Simple things like a good calendar, working printing functionality, LOTS of basic stuff - it just felt like the IT was a decade behind. Here on HN, Windows continually gets roasted by how bad its UX is compared to Mac OS. With Limux vs Windows, the difference was practically 10x as large as that.

I REALLY hope the LibreOffice transition goes well. Hopefully, this is a much wiser approach than trying to migrate everything off Windows at once.

Re: German state planning to switch 25,000 PCs to LibreOffice

#160

Post by Flatuscents »

nivenkos wrote: post #118
Flatuscents wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s not overgeneralize. The US is not in lockstep with all EU goals and ideas, but not an ally? As someone who grew up with nuclear drills every week I can assure you I think of the EU as an ally, AND I want you to have a robust Big Tech environment. We share a common cultural interest in freedom and fairness, more or less, despite all the craziness in the world right now. Maybe the US isn’t always the BEST friend,…

It's well known that the CIA has spied on European industry to benefit their own (e.g. Boeing over Airbus) - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32542140 And on European leaders - https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-security-agency-spie... How does that differ from Huawei and China?

We are treaty bound to protect you and possibly die to do so in times of war, just like you have for us. Let’s keep it in perspective. If you really think the US is no different from China, I’m not sure there is anything I could ever say to convince you otherwise. If you live long enough, you see governments make bad decisions, some in retrospect, some from the beginning, and when you dig deep, you can often find it is associated with some individuals who had a lot to gain from those decisions. We spy, you spy, we all spy. Defense is at the base of the pyramid in terms of national security. I can see some well intentioned individual in the CIA thinking that spying re: Airbus is important because it could impact our national security in terms of aircraft manufacturing and production, and how do we accommodate for the future as we lose market share and lay off skilled workers? There are legit reasons to know how the world is changing so you can adjust to it, but yeah maybe the US Government should have just asked. But I doubt they wanted to use this knowledge to bury Europe or keep them under or thumb, or whatever. Yes we compete but it is more flag football than ultimate fighting. With China I am not so sure - we will see.
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