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The genius of John von Neumann

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Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#51

Post by 29athrowaway »

tuesdayrain wrote: post #45
badRNG wrote: post #9

Bizarre that the second to top comment (on the linked page) immediately turned the conversation into one about the commenter's view on racial/sexual supremacy and goes on to say "correspondingly, there are also ethnicities that are less intelligent" (I'm assuming they are implying supremacy of their own group.) It's quite jarring the frequency one comes across white supremacist/misogynist talking points when one trie…

All he said is that some ethnicities are less intelligent than others. What is the statistical likelihood that 100% of ethnicities, which have evolved in drastically different environments across the world, have all developed perfectly identical intelligence on average? It's just not how evolution realistically works. People shouldn't close their eyes to how the world actually is whenever it doesn't match up with how…

Yeah but some comparisons suck.

If you measure the IQ for the same ethnicity you will notice that the IQ changes over time.

Having proper levels of iodine is responsible for about 15 points of IQ. Removing lead from fuel, some extra increase.

Pollution, nutrition, water purity, all the accrued knowledge about fetal and child development that is applied in modern economies, etc. plays a role.

Also, there are negative factors like exposure to violence and trauma, substance abuse, which is correlated with poverty and inequality... which is a legacy of slavery, racial segregation, etc.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#52

Post by juanani »

sugarpile wrote: post #31
user982 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"World domination through genocide is good, actually."

Well that's a strawman. That is not a belief I hold and no where did I claim or imply I did. There's nothing in my comment, or in von Neuman's stance that I'm aware of that, that endorses world domination. I also don't see any reason to evoke the emotions associated with the word genocide either... What I believe is that preventing development and possession of nuclear weapons by other nations would very likely lead…

In this case of action, and I can't believe Neumann didn't let you in on the sillyness of his plan(if he was even aware at all), the first nation with nukes would have done everyone else a favor and minimized future 'wipe outs' by nuking themselves off. Sadly, he fooled you, or didn't see his hypocracy. Doesn't sound too bright imo. 2ez to idolize celebrities though.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#53

Post by badRNG »

tuesdayrain wrote: post #45
badRNG wrote: post #9

Bizarre that the second to top comment (on the linked page) immediately turned the conversation into one about the commenter's view on racial/sexual supremacy and goes on to say "correspondingly, there are also ethnicities that are less intelligent" (I'm assuming they are implying supremacy of their own group.) It's quite jarring the frequency one comes across white supremacist/misogynist talking points when one trie…

All he said is that some ethnicities are less intelligent than others. What is the statistical likelihood that 100% of ethnicities, which have evolved in drastically different environments across the world, have all developed perfectly identical intelligence on average? It's just not how evolution realistically works. People shouldn't close their eyes to how the world actually is whenever it doesn't match up with how…

All you've done is restate the original claim without providing evidence that intelligence "doesn't match up" (as you claim) across ethnicities.

Generally when pressed, folks who dress up their racism in pseudoscientific language rely on the same small handful of talking points which largely haven't changed since "scientific racism" was mainstream in the 19th century. This started with phrenology, a widespread mainstream pseudoscience not only focused on dehumanizing black people, but also explicitly targeting natives as an apparent attempt to justify otherwise unconscionable public policies of the day. [1]

It's bad enough to hold pseudoscientific beliefs; it's worse if those beliefs originate in a blantant attempt to dehumanize others.

[1] https://pages.vassar.edu/realarchaeology/2017/03/05/phrenolo...

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#54

Post by diplodocusaur »

dandanua wrote: post #27
photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

> hero-worship of scientists is very silly About what they should think when developing a weapon of ultimate mass destruction? Rainbow unicorns? You can't be a pacifist and simultaneously fight for "peace", that's nonsense. You can only fight for your survival, and for your people, your culture, your principles and values.

so, tribalism?

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#55

Post by Kranar »

systemvoltage wrote: post #41
creata wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People on HN are trying to cancel Feynman as well. What does the word "cancel" mean to you? Feynman can't be deplatformed since he's dead , and no one can deny his fundamental contributions to physics. > Please stop this onslaught of taking down the history for some axe to grind. You know, if someone told me to stop saying something about a historical figure because they'd "rather focus on their positive sides", I…

> You know, if someone told me to stop saying something about a historical figure because they'd "rather focus on their positive sides" This is the most fragile strawman I've seen in a while. That's not what I said at all . I did not say we should stop talking about bad parts of the history. That would be literally be a totalitarian state.

How else would you interpret this sentence?

"Please stop this onslaught of taking down the history for some axe to grind."

To me that sounds precisely like telling someone to "stop saying something about a historical figure because they'd "rather focus on their positive sides""

And yet you claim that isn't at all what you said.

Quite an unusual claim.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#56

Post by tuesdayrain »

badRNG wrote: post #53
tuesdayrain wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All he said is that some ethnicities are less intelligent than others. What is the statistical likelihood that 100% of ethnicities, which have evolved in drastically different environments across the world, have all developed perfectly identical intelligence on average? It's just not how evolution realistically works. People shouldn't close their eyes to how the world actually is whenever it doesn't match up with how…

All you've done is restate the original claim without providing evidence that intelligence "doesn't match up" (as you claim) across ethnicities. Generally when pressed, folks who dress up their racism in pseudoscientific language rely on the same small handful of talking points which largely haven't changed since "scientific racism" was mainstream in the 19th century. This started with phrenology, a widespread mainst…

James Watson had evidence on the subject, he was stripped of his titles and harassed by ideologues who are convinced everyone should be exactly equal. Scientists have realized it's not worth it to sacrifice their career when the general public simply isn't interested in knowing things that might be considered racist.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#57

Post by [deleted] »

photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

[deleted]

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#58

Post by selimthegrim »

GDC7 wrote: post #29
leesec wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A man who didn't want a perceived enemy to get nuclear capabilities. Wow, what a lunatic.

Every potential enemy is also a potential friend or a potential neutral. By definition. Besides you don't get to wipe 1B people off the planet (which way back then represented 35% of the global population), and have as only consequence the fact that you "won" the prisoner's dilemma. Such "victories" emerge as such after centuries when scientists would be studying the DNA remains and see who survived and who perished.…

Tom Clancy eventually turned into the worst kind of paint by numbers right wing kook. I have no doubt he'd be slavishly and unquestioningly supporting Trump if he were still alive.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#59

Post by [deleted] »

systemvoltage wrote: post #41
creata wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People on HN are trying to cancel Feynman as well. What does the word "cancel" mean to you? Feynman can't be deplatformed since he's dead , and no one can deny his fundamental contributions to physics. > Please stop this onslaught of taking down the history for some axe to grind. You know, if someone told me to stop saying something about a historical figure because they'd "rather focus on their positive sides", I…

> You know, if someone told me to stop saying something about a historical figure because they'd "rather focus on their positive sides" This is the most fragile strawman I've seen in a while. That's not what I said at all . I did not say we should stop talking about bad parts of the history. That would be literally be a totalitarian state.

[deleted]

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#60

Post by philwelch »

GDC7 wrote: post #29
leesec wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A man who didn't want a perceived enemy to get nuclear capabilities. Wow, what a lunatic.

Every potential enemy is also a potential friend or a potential neutral. By definition. Besides you don't get to wipe 1B people off the planet (which way back then represented 35% of the global population), and have as only consequence the fact that you "won" the prisoner's dilemma. Such "victories" emerge as such after centuries when scientists would be studying the DNA remains and see who survived and who perished.…

Von Neumann's advocacy of a preemptive strike, to my knowledge, took place in the 1950's, when the Soviet Union was still under the rule of Stalin and did not yet have the ability to effectively strike back at the US. It was far from a guarantee that the Soviets would moderate after Stalin's death--it was sort of like hoping that, if Germany won WWII, that the Nazis would moderate after Hitler's death.

Behold your "potential friend":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

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