The genius of John von Neumann • Hacker News Board

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#11

Post by glitcher » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

> In any case, hero-worship of scientists is very silly. The Nobel Prize bears a lot of the blame for this

I think it's more that it gets indoctrinated in the process of learning math and science, where every historic formula, theory, hypotheses, and law, is named after someone. It's easy to overlook that all those someones were complex, flawed human beings. And as you allude to, many great discoveries are the work of many. But when learning science, I feel like the history often gets glossed over and tends to overlook the less famous contributors to great ideas.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#12

Post by ramesh31 » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

sugarpile wrote: post #8

photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

I fail to see how pushing for a strategy that, from a game theory point of view, was sound makes him a lunatic. Plenty of people don't view the preservation of life as the be all end all and if that strategy had been followed and it had led to a world where only the United States had ever been allowed to develop nuclear weapons I see a very easy argument for it being the more long-term humane option. Edit: who's more…

>Edit: who's more of a lunatic: the man who presses a button that kills a million people and saves a billion or the man that doesn't? I'd argue the latter.

Hitler, Stalin, and Mao would agree

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#13

Post by Smoofer » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

sugarpile wrote: post #8

photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

I fail to see how pushing for a strategy that, from a game theory point of view, was sound makes him a lunatic. Plenty of people don't view the preservation of life as the be all end all and if that strategy had been followed and it had led to a world where only the United States had ever been allowed to develop nuclear weapons I see a very easy argument for it being the more long-term humane option. Edit: who's more…

Good thing we were able to avoid billions of deaths without nuking every major USSR city?

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#14

Post by user982 » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 4:01 PM UTC

sugarpile wrote: post #8

photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

I fail to see how pushing for a strategy that, from a game theory point of view, was sound makes him a lunatic. Plenty of people don't view the preservation of life as the be all end all and if that strategy had been followed and it had led to a world where only the United States had ever been allowed to develop nuclear weapons I see a very easy argument for it being the more long-term humane option. Edit: who's more…

"World domination through genocide is good, actually."

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#15

Post by systemvoltage » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

I hate this. We are trying to look at the worst of someone that did so much for the world.

People on HN are trying to cancel Feynman as well. I have nothing but feelings of disdain for you.

Even if they did something wrong, I’d rather focus on their positive sides. Please stop this onslaught of taking down the history for some axe to grind.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#16

Post by photochemsyn » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

sugarpile wrote: post #8

photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

I fail to see how pushing for a strategy that, from a game theory point of view, was sound makes him a lunatic. Plenty of people don't view the preservation of life as the be all end all and if that strategy had been followed and it had led to a world where only the United States had ever been allowed to develop nuclear weapons I see a very easy argument for it being the more long-term humane option. Edit: who's more…

It's a lunatic position. Consider the die-hard environmental activist who decides the best way to save the planet is to create a collection of deadly infectious pathogens, distribute them to every major city on the planet, and so reduce the human population by 75%, creating a glorious utopia for everyone to enjoy.

Several books and movies have employed this plot, 'Cobra Event' comes to mind.

Consider the psychology of the megalomaniacal individual who knows what's best for everyone based on their own personal views and experiences, who takes no input from anyone else, because everyone else in the room is an idiot who doesn't understand the genius of their position...

This might lead to arguments like "who's more of a lunatic, the woman who releases the virus that ends the insane human population explosion on Planet Earth, or the woman who doesn't? I'd argue the latter."

To quote William Gibson, roughly: "It's like they're all running around with luminous messages scrawled on the inside of their foreheads."

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#17

Post by sugarpile » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

Smoofer wrote: post #13

sugarpile wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how pushing for a strategy that, from a game theory point of view, was sound makes him a lunatic. Plenty of people don't view the preservation of life as the be all end all and if that strategy had been followed and it had led to a world where only the United States had ever been allowed to develop nuclear weapons I see a very easy argument for it being the more long-term humane option. Edit: who's more…

Good thing we were able to avoid billions of deaths without nuking every major USSR city?

And should nuclear war ever occur? ~70 years is a relatively short time frame. Check back with me in another 200 and let me know if your comment still holds.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#18

Post by metalliqaz » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #15

photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

I hate this. We are trying to look at the worst of someone that did so much for the world. People on HN are trying to cancel Feynman as well. I have nothing but feelings of disdain for you. Even if they did something wrong, I’d rather focus on their positive sides. Please stop this onslaught of taking down the history for some axe to grind.

Feynman??? wtf

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#19

Post by DantesKite » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

An intellectual-yet-idiot who placed too much hope and emphasis on game theory, despite the fact that it only works when agents are perfectly rational.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#20

Post by sugarpile » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #16

sugarpile wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how pushing for a strategy that, from a game theory point of view, was sound makes him a lunatic. Plenty of people don't view the preservation of life as the be all end all and if that strategy had been followed and it had led to a world where only the United States had ever been allowed to develop nuclear weapons I see a very easy argument for it being the more long-term humane option. Edit: who's more…

It's a lunatic position. Consider the die-hard environmental activist who decides the best way to save the planet is to create a collection of deadly infectious pathogens, distribute them to every major city on the planet, and so reduce the human population by 75%, creating a glorious utopia for everyone to enjoy. Several books and movies have employed this plot, 'Cobra Event' comes to mind. Consider the psychology o…

If your goal is preservation of Earth and not the human species then yes, that may be a sound action.

> who knows what's best for everyone based on their own personal views and experiences, who takes no input from anyone else, because everyone else in the room is an idiot who doesn't understand the genius of their position...

We're talking about von Neuman here. If I was to find myself in conflict with an assessment of his I would default to assuming I was likely wrong. From a statistical point of view anyone who wouldn't do the same is wrong to do so and ego, personality, or some other "thing" is likely getting in their way. It's not a big deal to cede to him imo.