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Facebook is bad at moderating in English. In Arabic, it’s a disaster

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Re: Facebook is bad at moderating in English. In Arabic, it’s a disaster

#41
post #34

I'm starting to think centralized moderation is just a bad idea in general for sites of Facebook's size and reach. It doesn't scale well, can't easily adapt to other cultures, and has all sorts of problems with neutrality and subjectivity that are inherent to the very idea of centralized control. Sites like Reddit, HN, and Stack Overflow do a much better job with crowdsourced moderation via downvotes and flags, commu…

> Sites like Reddit, HN, and Stack Overflow do a much better job with [...], community-appointed moderators [...]

Reddit doesn't have community-appointed moderators. That's just factually not true.

What Reddit has is a bunch of little kingdoms run by whichever moderator happened to stake a claim on it first. Those moderators then add more moderators below them according to their personal whims... usually, they appoint some people who are invested in the community somewhat, but their appointment is completely arbitrary.

Going to call these "top moderators" (who staked out their claim) and "local moderators" (who are involved in the community).

The top moderators are, as far as I can tell, 100% invested in becoming moderators for as many little territories as they can, and amassing as much power as they can. They have absolute authority to add or remove other moderators in their little kingdoms, and they can make whatever decisions they want about removing posts in their territories. By and large, they do not interact with the communities they moderate... they don't care, they just want territory. What do they do with that power? Who knows!

The local moderators are appointed by the top mods, and they may have a limited set of permissions.

I'll just come out and say that Reddit is poorly moderated. That's my opinion. There are a few subreddits which are exceptions to this, but most subreddits are poorly moderated. Active mods spend most of their time just fighting spam posts and troll posts, and doing very little to figure out what moderation policies make sense. That's just the nature of the game. Nobody really wants to do the job of being an active mod, because it sucks, because you're playing a little cat and mouse game with users all the time.

Take, for example, one of the NYC subreddits (either NYC or NewYorkCity, I forget). Most of the posts are created by a single guy who spams a few low-effort memes in a Jordan Peterson subreddit, builds karma and history for their user profile, and then posts every news article about crime to the NYC subreddit. That user eventually gets banned and creates a new account. Seems like that user is on a mission to portray NYC as some crime-ridden shithole. The same user might be posting similar articles to the Seattle subreddit, or something. It makes the local subreddits a bit useless.

There are a plenty of decent subreddits but they tend to be very small and very specialized.

Re: Facebook is bad at moderating in English. In Arabic, it’s a disaster

#42

Moderating is so hard it will probably the first application for AI with generalized intelligence.

Moderating is so hard because there is no objective ground truth about what should or should not belong. Individuals and societies just don't agree. It is a fundamentally different problem than OCR, speech recognition, or even credit scoring.

Re: Facebook is bad at moderating in English. In Arabic, it’s a disaster

#43
post #34

I'm starting to think centralized moderation is just a bad idea in general for sites of Facebook's size and reach. It doesn't scale well, can't easily adapt to other cultures, and has all sorts of problems with neutrality and subjectivity that are inherent to the very idea of centralized control. Sites like Reddit, HN, and Stack Overflow do a much better job with crowdsourced moderation via downvotes and flags, commu…

So imagine what will happen when Facebook launches its metaverse!

Re: Facebook is bad at moderating in English. In Arabic, it’s a disaster

#44

Why does it say in an article about Arabic, "In Afghanistan, where hate speech is reportedly one of the top 'abuse categories.'..." Arabic is not spoke in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, there is common ignorant generalization that Arabic is the language of Iran, Afghanistan, and other Muslim countries. To those who live there, the distinction is not insignificant. This also casts doubt on the veracity of everything else…

A charitable interpretation would be to understand the "arabic" as in "The arabic script", that is: the alphabet. This is indeed the written representation of Persian and Urdu. It's a common confusion for some people to conflate a natural language with it's script. Compare with the similar confusion that conflates a programming language with either it's implementation or the snytax used to write it in text files.

The charitable thing to do would be to read the statement in the context of the paragraph that it is a part of. There is no issue. The rude thing is six comments from different people assuming the author is dumb.

Re: Facebook is bad at moderating in English. In Arabic, it’s a disaster

#45

Why does it say in an article about Arabic, "In Afghanistan, where hate speech is reportedly one of the top 'abuse categories.'..." Arabic is not spoke in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, there is common ignorant generalization that Arabic is the language of Iran, Afghanistan, and other Muslim countries. To those who live there, the distinction is not insignificant. This also casts doubt on the veracity of everything else…

A charitable interpretation would be to understand the "arabic" as in "The arabic script", that is: the alphabet. This is indeed the written representation of Persian and Urdu. It's a common confusion for some people to conflate a natural language with it's script. Compare with the similar confusion that conflates a programming language with either it's implementation or the snytax used to write it in text files.

It’s not a common confusion at all though. No one would ever confuse Italian for English because they use the same script. It’s only “common” wrt Arabic script languages.

Re: Facebook is bad at moderating in English. In Arabic, it’s a disaster

#46
post #32

In French it's horrible as well. They have such a naive approach it is ridiculous. One word that keeps getting banned is "pédale" which means pedal but was also used as a slur till maybe the 90s in France. Some people getting banned because they want to sell their guitar pedal... pretty ridiculous.

In Hindi, they don’t care. Most of Facebook’s focus is US where it is based and held liable more often.

Re: Facebook is bad at moderating in English. In Arabic, it’s a disaster

#47
post #32

In French it's horrible as well. They have such a naive approach it is ridiculous. One word that keeps getting banned is "pédale" which means pedal but was also used as a slur till maybe the 90s in France. Some people getting banned because they want to sell their guitar pedal... pretty ridiculous.

Know the etymology behind "pédale"?

Re: Facebook is bad at moderating in English. In Arabic, it’s a disaster

#48
post #34

I'm starting to think centralized moderation is just a bad idea in general for sites of Facebook's size and reach. It doesn't scale well, can't easily adapt to other cultures, and has all sorts of problems with neutrality and subjectivity that are inherent to the very idea of centralized control. Sites like Reddit, HN, and Stack Overflow do a much better job with crowdsourced moderation via downvotes and flags, commu…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook is bad at moderating in English. In Arabic, it’s a disaster

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A charitable interpretation would be to understand the "arabic" as in "The arabic script", that is: the alphabet. This is indeed the written representation of Persian and Urdu. It's a common confusion for some people to conflate a natural language with it's script. Compare with the similar confusion that conflates a programming language with either it's implementation or the snytax used to write it in text files.

It’s not a common confusion at all though. No one would ever confuse Italian for English because they use the same script. It’s only “common” wrt Arabic script languages.

I imagine eastern cultures would find Italian and English rather similar.

Re: Facebook is bad at moderating in English. In Arabic, it’s a disaster

#50

Why does it say in an article about Arabic, "In Afghanistan, where hate speech is reportedly one of the top 'abuse categories.'..." Arabic is not spoke in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, there is common ignorant generalization that Arabic is the language of Iran, Afghanistan, and other Muslim countries. To those who live there, the distinction is not insignificant. This also casts doubt on the veracity of everything else…

Some language nerdiness: Persian (Farsi), and main languages of Afghanistan (Pashto and Tajik) are all indo-european, so the same language family as Indian Subcontinent and (most) European languages. Arabic is from a whole different family tree of Semitic languages, which also includes Hebrew and Maltese (go figure). They are totally different to indo-european languages.

>...family tree of Semitic languages, which also includes...Maltese

Okay. I did NOT see that one coming. In retrospect they're not exactly far from other Arabic-speaking countries, but I'm curious what the history is. I've also heard that Sicilian retains some features that differentiates it from Italian and suggests different roots, so I wonder if there's a connection there with Maltese.

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