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The genius of John von Neumann

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Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#31

Post by sugarpile »

user982 wrote: post #14
sugarpile wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how pushing for a strategy that, from a game theory point of view, was sound makes him a lunatic. Plenty of people don't view the preservation of life as the be all end all and if that strategy had been followed and it had led to a world where only the United States had ever been allowed to develop nuclear weapons I see a very easy argument for it being the more long-term humane option. Edit: who's more…

"World domination through genocide is good, actually."

Well that's a strawman. That is not a belief I hold and no where did I claim or imply I did. There's nothing in my comment, or in von Neuman's stance that I'm aware of that, that endorses world domination. I also don't see any reason to evoke the emotions associated with the word genocide either...

What I believe is that preventing development and possession of nuclear weapons by other nations would very likely lead to less deaths over time than nuking Russia would have. Are you really not concerned that we as a species may eventually wipe ourselves out? I am.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#32

Post by hh3k0 »

leesec wrote: post #6
photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

A man who didn't want a perceived enemy to get nuclear capabilities. Wow, what a lunatic.

Stopping a perceived enemy from researching what you've already successfully researched by using pre-emptive nuclear strikes is lunacy, yes.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#33

Post by creata »

systemvoltage wrote: post #15
photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

I hate this. We are trying to look at the worst of someone that did so much for the world. People on HN are trying to cancel Feynman as well. I have nothing but feelings of disdain for you. Even if they did something wrong, I’d rather focus on their positive sides. Please stop this onslaught of taking down the history for some axe to grind.

> People on HN are trying to cancel Feynman as well.

What does the word "cancel" mean to you? Feynman can't be deplatformed since he's dead, and no one can deny his fundamental contributions to physics.

> Please stop this onslaught of taking down the history for some axe to grind.

You know, if someone told me to stop saying something about a historical figure because they'd "rather focus on their positive sides", I might call that "taking down the history".

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#34

Post by photochemsyn »

sugarpile wrote: post #20
photochemsyn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a lunatic position. Consider the die-hard environmental activist who decides the best way to save the planet is to create a collection of deadly infectious pathogens, distribute them to every major city on the planet, and so reduce the human population by 75%, creating a glorious utopia for everyone to enjoy. Several books and movies have employed this plot, 'Cobra Event' comes to mind. Consider the psychology o…

If your goal is preservation of Earth and not the human species then yes, that may be a sound action. > who knows what's best for everyone based on their own personal views and experiences, who takes no input from anyone else, because everyone else in the room is an idiot who doesn't understand the genius of their position... We're talking about von Neuman here. If I was to find myself in conflict with an assessment…

To summarize my point, being a brilliant physicist and mathematician in no way qualifies one as a brilliant diplomat or foreign policy strategist. Would you want John von Neumann to do brain surgery on you, for example?

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#35

Post by user982 »

photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

> A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc.

What made Cantor unhinged? I skimmed his Wikipedia page (assuming you mean Georg) and the worst seemed to be a couple of sanatorium stays for depression.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#36

Post by friedman23 »

DantesKite wrote: post #19
photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

An intellectual-yet-idiot who placed too much hope and emphasis on game theory, despite the fact that it only works when agents are perfectly rational.

If you are executing the nash equilibrium strategy, if your opponent deviates from the strategy you win by default.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#37

Post by goto11 »

hirundo wrote: post #21

"It’s fashionable to say that intelligence isn’t real, or that we can’t define it, or that it’s a Western colonial construct. But the word points to a real thing: there is some quality which rocks don’t have, and which mice have a bit of, and which chimpanzees have more of, and humans have a lot of; and which is something like problem-solving ability or ability to achieve goals." We have IQ for measuring problem-solv…

The quote sounds like either a strawman or a misunderstanding. I don't think many people would claim intelligence "isn't real", but obviously IQ tests are created by humans which certain culturally-influenced ideas about what constitute intelligence.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#38

Post by eyeundersand »

metalliqaz wrote: post #18
systemvoltage wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate this. We are trying to look at the worst of someone that did so much for the world. People on HN are trying to cancel Feynman as well. I have nothing but feelings of disdain for you. Even if they did something wrong, I’d rather focus on their positive sides. Please stop this onslaught of taking down the history for some axe to grind.

Feynman??? wtf

Surely you're joking... (sorry, couldn't resist)

I'm out of the loop on this one too. Anyone care to explain?

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#39

Post by hyperbovine »

photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

> In any case, hero-worship of scientists is very silly.

Compared to, say, people who use sticks to roll balls into holes? [https://www.theonion.com/man-who-used-stick-to-roll-ball-int...] I'll take scientist worship any day compared to all the other idiots and charlatans our culture chooses to worship.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#40

Post by BizarroLand »

eyeundersand wrote: post #38
metalliqaz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feynman??? wtf

Surely you're joking... (sorry, couldn't resist) I'm out of the loop on this one too. Anyone care to explain?

Apparently he was a highly sexualized person and he partook in debauchery, got grabby with women in general and took advantage of naive science groupies when the opportunity presented itself and other things that are probably worse than that.

https://galileospendulum.org/2014/07/13/the-problem-of-richa...

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