Daddy isn’t coming back • Hacker News Board

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#391

Post by mthoms » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #263

anm89 wrote: post #180

This is the part where every one piles in posting suicide hotline numbers. I would argue most of those people do not have any experience with, or understanding of those hotlines and it's just a trite thing to throw out to show support like "fuck cancer". You should seriously understand what you are signing yourself up for if you call one of those numbers on yourself or someone else. For one you are volunteering that…

Sheesh, that's fucking terrible. I had naively assumed that suicide hotlines would ring to someone who would really listen to you and try to give you some perspective in a non-intrusive manner, which is what I imagine myself needing if I was in that position. Although I guess it's not terribly surprising to hear it's the bog standard pattern of friendly-faced leadgen that passes off execution to a misincentivized bac…

They do listen. They are well intentioned.

But, they are required by law to escalate the issue if they believe self-harm is imminent.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#392

Post by KaiserPro » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

yardstick wrote: post #336

KaiserPro wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article is from the UK, so we should be clear about consequences for the UK audience. The Samaritans hotline (a general distress helpline) is there to listen. Nothing else. They do not provide treatment, judgement or the like. Sometimes that is enough. More importantly its anonymous. You will not be sectioned by phoning them To be sectioned (ie detained against your will), you _have_ to be assessed by a doctor w…

Do you still collect your normal pay while being sectioned in the UK? If not, may as well have been fired…

It depends on length of stay.

But in general you will be paid full wages for intermittent sickness (ie three days -> couple of weeks)

As you are sectioned you will have a doctor's note by default, so there is no chance of being fired. (employment tribunal will back you up on that. However there is a cost(capped at £750) to that nowadays [thanks david cameron, you utter shitfacewankstain])

There are a number of rights for returning to work as well after a long sickness.

Should that fail, there is still nominally a safteynet of universal credit. However that has become rather inhumane recently (thanks again David you shitbag.) but it is not as inhumane as unemployment insurance in the US.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#393

Post by garmaine » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

rubyist5eva wrote: post #377

garmaine wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My healthcare provider wanted to switch me from stimulants for my ADHD to an off-label use of an antidepressant which listed suicidal thoughts as it’s most frequent side effect. As a father of two young kids I NOPED out of that real quick. I had to stop reading the TFA because I kept thinking “this could have been me” and spiking my anxiety.

That sounds horrific. I hope you found a doctor and medication that works for you.

I did, but I have to pay an obscene amount of money for an out of network doctor :/

What was worst about the whole experience was that my HMO didn’t want to switch me for my benefit, but because prescribing a scheduled substance was inconvenient for them. Too much paperwork or something? The system is not built to protect patient interests.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#394

Post by ncmncm » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #379

ncmncm wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pharma companies demonstrating that they are no better at impossible things than anybody else does not tell you anything new. Or, did you have a point?

You said: > It is why you are always seeing articles insisting, idiotically, that RCTs prove depression medications are no better than placebo. I responded to your claim with a little more colour on that particular trial in order to perhaps start a discussion around what we mean as depression. Clearly, I didn't succeed at my aim, my apologies ;) Edit: it's particularly the framing of the trials as "idiotic" that spur…

I am mystified that we are having this conversation. To me the central statement in my original posting was:

> For validity, RCTs depend utterly on reliable sortative diagnoses

So, are you saying you believe an RCT can demonstrate a fact when whichever medication is being tested addresses the actual condition of only a tiny fraction of the participants, and even exacerbates some of the others' various conditions?

Such trials are not idiotic, except as a waste of money. Reporting their results as if meaningful is what I called idiotic.

Or, are you saying you know how to design the protocol for an RCT when you have no idea which, if any, of the participants actually suffer the condition your medication is supposed to treat?

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#395

Post by yupper32 » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

bipson wrote: post #356

anm89 wrote: post #180

This is the part where every one piles in posting suicide hotline numbers. I would argue most of those people do not have any experience with, or understanding of those hotlines and it's just a trite thing to throw out to show support like "fuck cancer". You should seriously understand what you are signing yourself up for if you call one of those numbers on yourself or someone else. For one you are volunteering that…

Great, that sounds like a perfect pitch talk discourage anyone from calling such a number or talking to someone about a difficult time in their life. I really hope you are very wrong about what you wrote, otherwise you live in a really cold and frightening place. There sure is a hotline where you can just talk to someone, without losing your job, right? right...?

> Great, that sounds like a perfect pitch talk discourage anyone from calling such a number or talking to someone about a difficult time in their life.

But it's mostly true. Do you just want people not to talk about the flaws in the system?

As long as involuntary detention for suicidal people is law, I would never ever ever tell anyone about any suicidal tendencies.

Not being honest about what happens when you call a hotline is also horrible. "Haha! Got you! Police are on the way!"

I can't imagine the dread if that happened to me, knowing my life is about to get way worse even though I'm already at my bottom.

Anyone saying "well suicide is worse!" is completely missing the point.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#396

Post by yupper32 » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #374

Clubber wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People need to know what could happen when they call that hotline. I'm guessing people think it goes something like this: "I'm feeling suicidal, let me call the hotline." "I called the hotline and now I feel better, everything's great." In reality, at least in the US, it could be like this and this is codified in law (Duty to Warn): "I'm feeling suicidal, let me call the hotline." "We've notified law enforcement. The…

None of the outcomes listed are worse than the actual suicide. Afraid CPS will take your kids away? Well guess who goes to the orphanage if you bloody off yourself!

> None of the outcomes listed are worse than the actual suicide.

This is 1000% missing the point. They've already decided that being dead is better than being alive with their current life situation. And you're saying they should voluntarily make their lives worse?

Can you imagine: You're at rock bottom, thinking about taking your life. Then someone comes along and says "Hey what if you don't and we lock you up and take your kids. Want to live now?"

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#397

Post by varjag » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

yupper32 wrote: post #396

varjag wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the outcomes listed are worse than the actual suicide. Afraid CPS will take your kids away? Well guess who goes to the orphanage if you bloody off yourself!

> None of the outcomes listed are worse than the actual suicide. This is 1000% missing the point. They've already decided that being dead is better than being alive with their current life situation. And you're saying they should voluntarily make their lives worse? Can you imagine: You're at rock bottom, thinking about taking your life. Then someone comes along and says "Hey what if you don't and we lock you up and t…

That's exactly what the poster goes. Spreading FUD to dissuade people contact suicide hotline.

Not every contrarian take makes sense even if it blows your mind on the first reading.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#398

Post by yupper32 » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 6:27 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #397

yupper32 wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> None of the outcomes listed are worse than the actual suicide. This is 1000% missing the point. They've already decided that being dead is better than being alive with their current life situation. And you're saying they should voluntarily make their lives worse? Can you imagine: You're at rock bottom, thinking about taking your life. Then someone comes along and says "Hey what if you don't and we lock you up and t…

That's exactly what the poster goes. Spreading FUD to dissuade people contact suicide hotline. Not every contrarian take makes sense even if it blows your mind on the first reading.

Do you think people deserve to know that the police may be called on them if they call a hotline?

Do you think that people deserve to know that they can be involuntarily held if someone even thinks they're going to kill themselves?

I'd rather make this known and push for laws to be changed. Because I'm telling you that a massive number of people don't reach out to people because of these (real, valid) fears.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#399

Post by candiodari » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

zoelow wrote: post #349

anm89 wrote: post #180

This is the part where every one piles in posting suicide hotline numbers. I would argue most of those people do not have any experience with, or understanding of those hotlines and it's just a trite thing to throw out to show support like "fuck cancer". You should seriously understand what you are signing yourself up for if you call one of those numbers on yourself or someone else. For one you are volunteering that…

Feeling obliged to leave my story here: Three years ago I made a plan to take my own life. Instead of pushing through I contacted a local suicide hotline, it was completely anonymous. I just talked for a bit, but that little moment helped me to find the courage to talk to a family member and that led me to go into therapy which I completed a few months ago. Initially I was very scared telling my therapist about being…

Unfortunately, judging by the prevalence of the opposing situation happening in articles (in reputable newspapers too) online, you have essentially been lucky (or never got into a conflict with your therapist).

The odds of someone dying through suicide after a suicide attempt is very small (only 2%), but those odds greatly increase if inpatient treatment is provided, instead of reducing. There is a reason for that, and clearly your experience doesn't provide that reason. The stated reason psychiatrists give for this is that only the very serious cases get committed, but research doesn't back that, and for specific institutions (and you have no control over where you end up) it is definitely not true.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5710249/

Suicide after inpatient treatment in a psychiatric facility is actually getting close to enter the top-10 causes of death. Whilst that doesn't directly contradict what you're saying, it comes pretty close.

In the Netherlands, it is now actually true that more than 50% of suicides happen with psychiatric help, which mostly means getting locked up. Given that less than 1.5% of the population ever gets committed (but rising fast, especially for kids), that's pretty incredible.

And in a bunch of published cases it isn't even the case that people were committed for a suicide attempt, but for an outburst that was then diagnosed, for example as autism. Suicide came, years later, after years of treatment, a progressively worsening situation, and months in isolation in such a facility, in one case with the person locked up without his glasses.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#400

Post by cloudedcordial » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

trevyn wrote: post #286

cloudedcordial wrote: post #247

A friend's acquintance has been mentally ill for the last 10 years. They lost their spouse, their job, their car ... everything! They've been gradually increasingly incoherent in their speech over time. They've been resisting treatments. We are not doctors and won't armchair diagnose them, but we figured out something was wrong. We called a hotline for mental health services trying to see how non-family could help. T…

Have you offered a free apartment where they can live alone?

One of my friends actually paid upfront for a short-term semi-private accommodation. They did not stay for the whole time, asked for a refund of the remaining balance and left.

My friend has been mad because they took the money.