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Daddy isn’t coming back

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Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#311

Post by Aerroon »

ayngg wrote: post #212
anm89 wrote: post #180

This is the part where every one piles in posting suicide hotline numbers. I would argue most of those people do not have any experience with, or understanding of those hotlines and it's just a trite thing to throw out to show support like "fuck cancer". You should seriously understand what you are signing yourself up for if you call one of those numbers on yourself or someone else. For one you are volunteering that…

I think the best part is the dance you do when looking for a therapist where you try to say you really need help, but you have to temper that severity by saying that you aren't in such bad shape that you are suicidal for fear that they commit you to protocol or something. In reality mental healthcare feels like only a slight step up from antiquated methods from days long gone. Trying the medication roulette is like s…

And the medicine dart board assumes your psychiatrist doesn't make mistakes. Ie you will have to look up the information on the medicine roulette and the combinations yourself.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#312

Post by crimsoneer »

jolux wrote: post #276
sneak wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suicide is a human right. Interfering with someone's basic right to self-determination is absolutely despicable, no matter how ill the person is.

It's not quite as simple as that. One of the reasons the suicide rate is so high in the US is because of how easy it is to access firearms. This suggests that peoples' propensity to commit suicide is at least somewhat dependent on their environment. Given that, do you want to make their environment more or less likely to cause them to commit suicide? I'm in the latter category. As for the concern about basic rights,…

Another excellent example of this is removing carbon monoxide from ovens, which instantly reduced suicide numbers. Suicidal impulses are rarely a considered decision, so removing the opportunity immediate opportunity is very impactive

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#313

Post by crimsoneer »

chris_wot wrote: post #209
codingdave wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were not suicidal. Not passively, definitely not actively. The needs of the actively suicidal are not the same as someone who is unhappy and just calling to check the experience. I don't know if you've ever been around someone who is actively suicidal, but it is a completely different state of mind than normal interactions. What they need is not a connection or a therapy session to talk them down - that comes lat…

If you are suicidal, don't call a hotline. See a friend, talk to family, but don't consult a professional. Professionals, in many countries, are bound by law to refer you to a psych ward. Even if your state of mind is temporary, you'll be stuck there for days, weeks and sometimes even months. Often, staff are abusive. If you are suicidal, do not call a hotline.

Which wonderful place do you live in where there is all this spare capacity in MH services? Speaking for the Uk, you're not getting sectionned unless you're really at imminent unavoidable risk, and you'll probably be out in a few days

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#314

Post by csomar »

MauranKilom wrote: post #141
csomar wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how it works in real life. Family (and maybe generous government healthcare) will take care of "too broke" to give any yield, in the future, people. Anyone else who isn't lucky to have that kind of support will find himself in the streets. And that's fine. Societies can only function if the yield from the people it invested in is higher than the investment. This is why socialized healthcare is tricky. If y…

> And that's fine. Societies can only function if the yield from the people it invested in is higher than the investment. This is why socialized healthcare is tricky. If you invest too much, you might be wasting resources and endangering all of your society. If you invest too little, you might be leaving people who would otherwise be productive once the investment is made. This is quite evidently not how most sociali…

> In fact, taken to the logical conclusion it would mean killing retirees instead of paying them pensions (imagine what society could spend all that money on, right?).

I'm strictly talking about people who are getting support but didn't chip in. Most retirees have saved up for their pension in the past, in the expectation that they'll get it in the future.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#315

Post by xdfgh1112 »

Aerroon wrote: post #309
jolux wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not quite as simple as that. One of the reasons the suicide rate is so high in the US is because of how easy it is to access firearms. This suggests that peoples' propensity to commit suicide is at least somewhat dependent on their environment. Given that, do you want to make their environment more or less likely to cause them to commit suicide? I'm in the latter category. As for the concern about basic rights,…

> One of the reasons the suicide rate is so high in the US is because of how easy it is to access firearms. Is this actually true? I know it's said quite often, but there are countries with much much higher suicide rates where firearms aren't nearly as ubiquitous. Eg Lithuania.

Or Japan...

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#316

Post by ncmncm »

derbOac wrote: post #261
Fr0styMatt88 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind me asking, is there anywhere I can read more about this aspect of the system? This comment seems really extreme and it's a perspective I haven't really seen anywhere else.

So speaking as someone who has worked in psychiatry and mental health care, I can say it's basically true. It's not the intent of those working in it, but I think like a lot of things it's sort of what has emerged through the system. I had a colleague, now retired, who was the president of state mental health associations, etc. who made the argument that most suicide treatment programs are really designed to protect…

I always thought of suicide as incomprehensible, then I encountered it used as a coping mechanism: "It's not so bad, I could always kill myself." (A person who has come to rely on that must not have kids!)

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#317

Post by ncmncm »

ayngg wrote: post #212
anm89 wrote: post #180

This is the part where every one piles in posting suicide hotline numbers. I would argue most of those people do not have any experience with, or understanding of those hotlines and it's just a trite thing to throw out to show support like "fuck cancer". You should seriously understand what you are signing yourself up for if you call one of those numbers on yourself or someone else. For one you are volunteering that…

I think the best part is the dance you do when looking for a therapist where you try to say you really need help, but you have to temper that severity by saying that you aren't in such bad shape that you are suicidal for fear that they commit you to protocol or something. In reality mental healthcare feels like only a slight step up from antiquated methods from days long gone. Trying the medication roulette is like s…

The only way, still, to determine which of a mess of conditions you have, all called depression, is to see which, if any, medication seems to help. It is as if you present with a broken bone, but they have to try splinting one after another until they hit on the broken one. And, you might actually have more than one. And, some doctors have a favorite bone, and won't try the others.

Try to imagine a Random Controlled Trial protocol for a new depression medication. It is miraculous that any have been approved. It is why you are always seeing articles insisting, idiotically, that RCTs prove depression medications are no better than placebo. Splinting the left shinbone helps only a small fraction of patients who have a fracture.

For validity, RCTs depend utterly on reliable sortative diagnoses. RCT fetishists (which exist, and are common) are mentally unable to process that fact.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#319

Post by taylorius »

Barrin92 wrote: post #306
themacguffinman wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How wonderfully tautological this is: those with suicidal tendencies are deemed incapable of making the choice due to "mental illness". How can you tell if they're mentally ill? You look for symptoms of course, symptoms like "they have suicidal tendencies".

no, it's not tautological at all. There are categories of suicide that are clearly defensible, like euthanasia for end of life patients who have made the decision that any quality of life is irredeemably lost, for example. But the 38 year old husband, the subject of the article, who was in an unstable mental state to the point where his wife felt threatened and left for the safety of their children was certainly not…

But why doesn't "not being in command of one's mental faculties" qualify as a valid reason to want to end one's life? If that is ongoing, and unlikely to ever improve, I can well imagine wanting to off myself, rather than continue within that nightmare.
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