Live data from Hacker News

Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

astralcodexten.substack.com

141–150 of 805 posts

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#141

Love the final explanation for how ivermectin can be incidentally good for COVID-19 patients, even if it does nothing to COVID-19 directly. In fact, as the author cites from another researcher, the trials are a strong piece of evidence for "add[ing] ivermectin to mass drug administration programs." In other words, global medical welfare, where we just give everyone a bunch of a cheap and effective medications to coun…

For real, prophylaxis of enteral worms should have been more popular in developed countries. It's amazing how hygiene practices are sometimes poor and tropical diseases are unknown in developed countries But then you go visit somewhere and/or some animal product is imported in questionable ways and you get a worm. Which for 95% of people will be mildly inconsequential but it might also cause problems.

This is the basis for many religious food taboos.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bit most people are interested in is the potential prophylactic effect, not so much treatment once you have it (at least the people who are following the science and not buying into the weird cute claims.) It having an apparent antiviral effect during treatment indicates there's a possibility for mechanism of action that can prevent catching covid. It might be noise in the data, but studying it in large trials is…

A prophylactic effect would be, pardon me, stupid. There is even less evidence for that, and the vaccines clearly work better. Also you'd need to take Ivermectin continously for the next few years?? Compounding the cost and potential risks from sideeffects. Ivermectin is quite safe, but there are some risks, all drugs can go wrong every once in a while.

You're not pardoned. You could have edited that, but decided not being rude wasn't worth the effort of deleting a single sentence? Maybe just don't write the first condescending thing that pops into your mind.

If ivermectin worked as an antiviral prophylactic, it's another tool to use with better stability in storage and transportation, it's cheaper, and immediately useful for places that don't have refrigeration or access to vaccines, or can't use them for medical reasons. It could be effective against coronaviruses generally, which would be great.

It would also probably mean a novel mechanism of action which could lead to new drugs. From a purely scientific standpoint, it's a wonderful thing to get more out of microbe based medicines since they're so easy to culture.

Iterating over different chemistry using crispr solves many manufacturing issues, and makes drug r&d vastly more accessible around the world. A determined high school science geek could produce ivermectin, but mrna vaccines require multi million dollar labs.

The evidence isn't strong, to be perfectly clear, but the payoff is more than just a "stupid" less effective vaccine alternative.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supposedly they are not buying everyone off. Look, 2008 happened, why couldn't similar thing that happened in financial industry happen in medicine industry? The motivations, rushing of everything could be just aligned enough to cause all of this. Safety studies excluding some participants, some important data. All you'd have to pay off is to exclude certain data, for which there are ALREADY reports coming out for. F…

Directly from the article: > "Sometimes these people even have a specific theory for why elites are covering up ivermectin, like that pharma companies want you to use more expensive patented drugs instead. This theory is extremely plausible. Pharma companies are always trying to convince people to use expensive patented drugs instead of equally good generic alternatives. Ivermectin believers probably heard about this…

What are these paragraphs in response to?

> I claim that with ivermectin, even the people who don’t usually lie were saying it was ineffective, and they were saying it more directly and decisively than liars usually do. But most people can’t translate Pharma → English fluently enough to know where the space of “things people routinely lie about and nobody worries about it too much” ends. So they incredibly reasonably assume anything could be a lie. And if you don’t know which statements about pharmaceuticals are lies, “the one that has dozens of studies contradicting it” is a pretty good heuristic!"

We currently have a unique situation. Never in the world have scientists, experts or doctors been as pressured to direct people to current vaccines. There's a clear risk to losing your credibility and your job if you were to contradict. Even if you were to think that something may be wrong, it would be a herculean task for you to prove it and is it really worth it to sacrifice your career and everything else? Maybe you are just 50/50 or 80% sure, and incase of that 20% uncertainty you definitely don't want to risk your life work.

Also chicken and an egg problem. Anyone who claims current vaccines are unsafe or ineffective are discredited, so after they have made their claim you can just call them misinformation spreaders and tell again "no credible scientist has said X" and if that credible scientist says X, you will just stop considering them as credible.

But my point is more oriented towards vaccines than Ivermectin honestly. I'm not a proponent of Ivermectin, but I'm just trying to discuss what results might current motivations in the world yield, and I believe it's definitely possible that Ivermectin COULD be improperly discredited in current ecosystem of everything.

With all the social pressures, dire situation, debates being blocked, people labelled immediately misinformation spreaders if their conclusions don't fit the mainstream narrative, I would say very many untruths are possible.

I myself can't trust MSM at all any longer, and I am 95% sure that vaccines are not as safe and effective as MSM is trying to portray them as. I don't know exactly how unsafe or how ineffective they are, but that's mostly because proper debate is not allowed. Until this clears up, I'm going to skip on vaccines.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#144
post #11

His alien thought experiment in the “Political Takeaway” section at the bottom is a masterpiece. If you’ve struggled to explain where science lost democracy, this must be as crisp as it’ll ever be described.

I think like he said, it is all trust. Without trust, people are wary of your motivations. When you are in that position, having the people you don't trust do things like promote the narrative of "trust science" just looks like they are using scientists as mouthpieces to co-opt their trust to push a narrative. Moderating misinformation looks like censorship, mandates look like coercion, etc.

Overall it was just a colossal failure of communication by policy makers, who had already eroded most of their trust before the pandemic, which then got exacerbated by contemporary journalism that felt like it had no qualms about making everything as divisive as possible for engagement.

I don't think people have lost trust in science, but politicians using "science" in this way of communication are doing a pretty good job of trying to erode that trust.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However I think he misrepresent some anti-vaxxers: it's not a matter of trusting science, it's a matter of trusting scientists with heavy conflict of interest to tell the truth while most of us don't have the required scientific knowledge to evaluate if they're telling the truth. But you don't have to trust only scientists directly or indirectly employed by those companies. There are plenty of subject-matter expert…

> who would have very little to lose from criticising the rollout I beg to differ, here is an example: Luc Montagnier, a Nobel prize recipient, has been completely marginalized after emitting doubts about vaccine safety and is now absolutely inaudible in anything mainstream. It's just an example, there are several more. Anybody that saw how he was treated probably though really hard before emitting any dissenting opi…

Hm the main content of a scientists life in my experience is really not measured by mainstream media appearances. And if anything, he is probably more known now than before [0], so even in the sense of crude 'celebrity status', he saw a net gain.

[0] https://trends.google.de/trends/explore?date=all&q=Luc%20Mon...

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#146
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is only a fallacy when you are an expert as well, but when you are a layperson in a field and you are discarding real expert opinions because you don't like them you don't get to claim that their opinions are arguments from authority and therefore by definition fallacies. Maybe actually read that wikipedia page instead of just linking to it? This seems to be a common and recurring theme: my opinion is worth as muc…

> It is only a fallacy when you are an expert as well... This is wrong to the point where you really might want to take a deep breath. The point of experts is they have thought about a field more and are better at making sound arguments in that field. "Most scientists/doctors believe..." is literally, exactly and unambiguously a fallacious argument. The only thing that matters is why they would believe that. And if t…

No, if you are not a doctor your opinion on any of this doesn't matter at all, it's that simple.

Probability dictates that any doctor - let alone most doctors' - opinion trumps yours and everybody else that parrots you, because they will be right far more often than you about medical things.

You may be better at interpreting the statistics than your doctor friends but you are not better at medicine, are not wired into their world as much as they are and in fact are most likely blabbing nonsense.

You can stand by your comments but that just proves my original point: that you consider your own opinion to be a higher one than someone trained in the field that you have an opinion on. See your other comment in this thread regarding how medicine prescription works, it doesn't but that isn't going to stop you from being convinced and it would not surprise me if you felt that that doctor is making an argument from authority.

Suggestion: assume that you are a layperson in medicine, act accordingly. And go get vaccinated if you haven't been already, and ask your doctor if they thinks that's a good idea, rather than to believe me, yet another stranger on the internet.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#147
post #85
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the sneaky government is offering those freely, so that's very suspicious to some folks that would rather have "the good stuff" off of the black market.

Ivermectin is completely safe (even if it doesn’t work). The rest of treatments, well, we will know in a few years or decades.

Absolutely not. Ivermectin, like other antiparasitic drugs has a wealth of metabolic side effects making uncontrolled administration quite dangerous.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#148
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion it should be an argument, especially for people who don't have that expertise. Also, even the "moderately convincing" evidence is in my opinion not nearly enough. It might be if Covid-19 were a modestly important disease with only a few labs and clinics running working on it. But it's not. Throw enough shit against the wall, eventually something will stick by chance. This is a globally distributed exper…

> In my opinion it should be an argument, It is a fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority . To make an argument, there needs to be an argument.

It would be a fallacy to say "this argument is necessarily true because an authority claimed it was so", but it isn't a fallacy to say "this authority in this subject claimed it was so and it far more probable that they know what they are talking about than you, who are not an authority in this subject."

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#149
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is little evidence of such analysis being suppressed. I think it is just relatively rare, because it is a lot of work and takes particular skill. Most people who care about this research are indeed crackpots, unfortunately. Those who aren't have mostly moved on from Ivermectin because they have better things to do. Ivermectin is being tested in large RCTs, as it should. If it works, it will be used. If it doesn…

Going through one of those studies from https://ivmmeta.com/ on YouTube would be a risky proposition for a YouTuber. It goes against YouTube's medical misinformation policy [0]. It is pretty clear that a study with that sort of effect size could encourage someone to take Ivermectin. Particularly the "Categorical claims that Ivermectin is an effective treatment for COVID-19 " would be a worry depending on how the cens…

> Now it turns out, laughably in hindsight, that the effect is probably whether people had parasites or not and I hadn't thought of that.

Your eagerness to jump on to this idea (which is a cool theory, and isn't meritless, but it should be stressed is a theory that a psychiatrist and social commentator came up with) makes me think you should be wary of how personally susceptible you are to what I'm going to call "fetishization of contrarianism". It's fun to be right, and fun to be right when other people are wrong. It's cool.

But its easy to move from "I don't implicitly value what experts say" to "I implicitly distrust so-called experts", which you appear to be doing throughout this and other threads. You've further jumped from what could uncharitably be called a conspiracy theory to a counter-conspiracy theory. Scott even presents his idea as, essentially a conspiracy theory:

> It feels right to me because it’s the most troll-ish possible solution. Everybody was wrong!

"everyone was wrong", look at me, I'm right, here's a fantastic narrative that perfectly ties up all the loose ends. He looks smart and cool. And you do too[1] if you agree with him. But, to keep on theme, this is a brain worm. (and since we're on a Scott Alexander post, I'll tie this into the broader theme of rationalism) And it's a brain worm that I think a lot of people who otherwise think they're rational/rationalist fall for. The conventional wisdom is, usually, mostly right. Not always all the way right, and sometimes really wrong. But usually, it's most of the way there.

This makes alternate modes of thinking really boring, because despite all the fancy self-reflection and attempts to be superior, you're going to draw relatively few conclusions that are all that different from the mainstream. So what's the point? Either you do all this work for a marginal gain, or...or...or, well what if the conventional wisdom is actually wrong a lot more often? What if the experts are misleading us? What if the experts fall into thinking traps that make them wrong all the time? We shouldn't just disregard the experts, we should actively distrust them and assume the opposite! This opens up lots of possibilities for cool ideas. Incredibly compelling narratives, narratives where you can say that everyone else was wrong, and you were right. You can be a hero, or at least feel like one. Outsmarting the experts is cool, and knowing things first is cool. It's cool. And the "problem" with this is that sometimes you'll be right. The government is spying on citizens illegally. Snowden was right. And Ivermectin might have a small effect on covid, and even cooler it might be due to worms! But there have been tons of quack covid cures (HCQ, bleach, silver, etc.) and not every conspiracy theory about the government is true, even if the narrative would be cooler, because we distrust the government and the profit motives of these corporations, and that makes us want to distrust everything they do.

But the world is more boring than that, and even though the contrary opinion is true sometimes, usually it isn't.

[1]: Another, potentially equally compelling take here is that Scott's presentation here has allowed you to change your mind without admitting (even to yourself) that you were wrong! Because as he presents it, you weren't "wrong". We really, really dislike doing that, but this way you don't have to. The data did/does show an an effect for Ivermectin. You were right. That the effect was due to a "global" confounding factor allows you to change your conclusion without admitting that you were wrong in how you did the analysis. Like, whether or not you were wrong, the people who disagreed with you were right: it's unlikely that it would be helpful for your mother or whomever to take Ivermectin. The rational thing to do here would be to update your priors to trust the "experts" a bit more, perhaps their expert analysis that you weren't willing to believe before, had some truth to it, even though you don't know precisely how or why they reached that conclusion!

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#150
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a pretty good memory for comment histories and you've been pushing this for far more than it is worth. That this single article would change your mind is fortunate, but I do not suspect that to hold true for the bulk of the conspiracy peddlers that remain.

Isn't this an example of some rigid and ineffective thinking patterns? Article publishes sound arguments, doesn't talk down to the audience, admits problems with appeals to authority... and converts a conspiracy believer! ...No way, there is no way that can possibly work, the others are way too dumb, and the convert is a bad person... basically anything to just go back to pretending appeals to authority work. Despite…

This is a blogger who took time out of their day to do this. Why do you have to be catered to to be convinced? The blogger didn't produce any new data, it was already there, you chose to ignore it, or rather, picked something else to be convinced by.

It's not bullying or "talking down to" to simply ignore bullshit, it's effective use of your time.

Post reply on HN