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Decentralized Woo Hoo

stephendiehl.com

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Re: Decentralized Woo Hoo

#61

Post by deweller »

CJefferson wrote: post #47
21eleven wrote: post #37

I think this is a fair criticism to a limited extent, the crypto world is full of useless memecoins that don't have value beyond serving as gambling games. However some people interested in and working on blockchain and related technologies are pursuing ambitious goals that could reshape the economy and politics in ways that makes them more open to participation and "strongly typed"/formalized. Achieving these goals…

Your last point (everything in smart contracts) I just can't understand. I personally wouldn't want to live in a world where the "computer says no", and even if a court and Jury disagrees, it's impossible to change. Similarly (and it's already happened several times), what happens when someone finds a loophole and drains the entire GDP of a country into their account? Do we say "Oh, well that's what the smart contrac…

The smart contracts you are seeing now are relatively simple programs and are woefully insufficient for nation-state level use.

Imagine a future with multiple levels of smart contracts that allow for court intervention and arbitration. It starts to resemble the checks and balances we have in place now, but the rules are public and codified.

Re: Decentralized Woo Hoo

#62

Post by CJefferson »

deweller wrote: post #61
CJefferson wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last point (everything in smart contracts) I just can't understand. I personally wouldn't want to live in a world where the "computer says no", and even if a court and Jury disagrees, it's impossible to change. Similarly (and it's already happened several times), what happens when someone finds a loophole and drains the entire GDP of a country into their account? Do we say "Oh, well that's what the smart contrac…

The smart contracts you are seeing now are relatively simple programs and are woefully insufficient for nation-state level use. Imagine a future with multiple levels of smart contracts that allow for court intervention and arbitration. It starts to resemble the checks and balances we have in place now, but the rules are public and codified.

But, if there is a "court intervention" clause that just lets you say "Transfer X money from Y to Z", then why bother with full blockchain/crypto? You have effectively central control.

Re: Decentralized Woo Hoo

#63

Post by TrackerFF »

whitepaint wrote: post #3

OP seems to have no idea about DeFI. You can lend and borrow on compound.finance, aave. You can play no-loss lotteries like PoolTogether. You can bet on your beliefs and hedge your investments on markets platforms like Polymarket. You can gamble. More on: https://ethereum.org/en/dapps/ . All of this without any arbitrary restrictions imposed by governments or companies, you just need an internet connection. How can y…

There's no free lunch. Just because regulators haven't caught up with things, that doesn't mean it will stay that way.

Here's how it's going to go down, like it always does:

1. Gov. tries to regulate and restrict usage

2. If that fails, they will go after bank accounts tied to brokerage accounts etc. Hell, in some countries it's extremely hard to use money made from crypto as a down payment for mortgage, auto loans, and what not - because how hard it is to prove that the money has been earned legally.

Some banks won't even touch crypto customers with a 10 feet pole, because all the regulatory uncertainty.

3. If that fails, they will start to lay down the law with even more drastic measures.

I love technology, I really do - but there's this extremely naïve and arrogant attitude in the community, that if you just power through in the name of technology, and ask for forgiveness later, then it's OK - it rarely if ever works that way. Regulators do not suddenly give in, and abolish "arbitrary" laws / regulations because someone found ways to circumvent or skirt them.

FWIW, I'm not saying that the technology is a dud - only that trying to circumvent regulations by "doing it with crypto" / "decentralized" is a flawed way to go on about things.

Re: Decentralized Woo Hoo

#64

Post by Daishiman »

tata71 wrote: post #43
21eleven wrote: post #37

I think this is a fair criticism to a limited extent, the crypto world is full of useless memecoins that don't have value beyond serving as gambling games. However some people interested in and working on blockchain and related technologies are pursuing ambitious goals that could reshape the economy and politics in ways that makes them more open to participation and "strongly typed"/formalized. Achieving these goals…

zkRollups, (specifically Loopring!), should replace our COBOL banking systems, and WILL replace our stock exchange.

I have no idea if this is parody.

Re: Decentralized Woo Hoo

#65

Post by ilaksh »

Critically fails to distinguish between decentralization technologies (a wider category) and cryptocurrency. Does not understand the term he is criticizing.

There is another deeper primary failure here shared by much of the HN community. That is the inability, despite so much evidence, to comprehend that technology IS an ally to society. In fact, it has always been a core part of progress in human society.

But the above, and the article, are just laying out worldviews, which is not constructive since beliefs are very broad and quite difficult to change. What IS possible to discuss are specific types of problems and technological or non-technological solutions to them. The article provides nothing specific to discuss. It is simply idealogical flamebait and should be removed.

Re: Decentralized Woo Hoo

#66

Post by ilaksh »

21eleven wrote: post #37

I think this is a fair criticism to a limited extent, the crypto world is full of useless memecoins that don't have value beyond serving as gambling games. However some people interested in and working on blockchain and related technologies are pursuing ambitious goals that could reshape the economy and politics in ways that makes them more open to participation and "strongly typed"/formalized. Achieving these goals…

If you have to limit the extent then it's inaccurate to characterize it as fair.

Re: Decentralized Woo Hoo

#67

Post by serverholic »

CJefferson wrote: post #47
21eleven wrote: post #37

I think this is a fair criticism to a limited extent, the crypto world is full of useless memecoins that don't have value beyond serving as gambling games. However some people interested in and working on blockchain and related technologies are pursuing ambitious goals that could reshape the economy and politics in ways that makes them more open to participation and "strongly typed"/formalized. Achieving these goals…

Your last point (everything in smart contracts) I just can't understand. I personally wouldn't want to live in a world where the "computer says no", and even if a court and Jury disagrees, it's impossible to change. Similarly (and it's already happened several times), what happens when someone finds a loophole and drains the entire GDP of a country into their account? Do we say "Oh, well that's what the smart contrac…

One thing I've realized is that it's best to think about crypto and smart contracts as a foundation to build upon. They're tools in our toolbox. What we build is up to us.

In the future, I don't think we'll see many monolithic contracts like you're describing (no USA smart contract). Instead I think we'll have a bunch of small, simple, and battle tested smart contracts that we can fit together like lego bricks.

Re: Decentralized Woo Hoo

#68

Post by xorp »

jrm4 wrote: post #25

Criticisms here are correct: Look, decentralized here doesn't mean "decentralized" in the slightest. I think for - not just the people he's critcizing, but ALSO FOR HIM, "decentralized" really means "centralized differently." True "decentralization" means letting go of (at least some) exclusivity and ownership; and the current flavor of the crypto craze can't even conceive of it. Ironic, since a lot of it is built on…

> True "decentralization" means letting go of (at least some) exclusivity and ownership; and the current flavor of the crypto craze can't even conceive of it.

"True" decentralization is a voluntary framework where both exclusivity and ownership can coexist with other (less capitalist) ideologies. What I find interesting is that there is an emerging global sandbox for people to experiment with novel technologies and try out new ideas that were simply not possible before.

It's certainly a fair criticism that the most popular (and most profitable) projects are lacking in creativity and disproportionately rewarded for questionable utility, but that is a criticism of the people who are building (and paying) with this technology.

Crazes come and go, and after this current Cambrian explosion winds down and all the NFT hype, DeFi scams, and almost-ponzi schemes implode, I believe that the truly interesting (and useful) projects will not only remain, but continue to grow and evolve over time.

Re: Decentralized Woo Hoo

#69

Post by DerekBickerton »

Seen many people conclude the low hanging fruit of technology has all been obtained, and there's little left to build. But with web3 we're only getting started. There's so much you can do with it.

PS: Is it not `woo woo` instead of `woo hoo`?

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woo-woo

Re: Decentralized Woo Hoo

#70

Post by uncomputation »

21eleven wrote: post #37

I think this is a fair criticism to a limited extent, the crypto world is full of useless memecoins that don't have value beyond serving as gambling games. However some people interested in and working on blockchain and related technologies are pursuing ambitious goals that could reshape the economy and politics in ways that makes them more open to participation and "strongly typed"/formalized. Achieving these goals…

I am actually a rare breed excited about the potential about cryptocurrency here on HN. That said, when I go through your example, I don’t see much difference from the current system despite the illusion that it’s different.

> appropriate taxation of a transaction is built into a smart contract

So, like sales tax. Which we have uniform and open laws for. Or income tax. Which we have uniform and open laws for.

> everything from deciding on how to spend that tax money to the project management for the efforts those tax dollars fund is conducted in the open

Tax laws are public knowledge. So are spending decisions. For example, the infrastructure bill that just passed. Anyone can see exactly the allocation of funds to where.

> by people who have achieved various types of stakeholder status

So, senators. Which we have already. Or direct democracy without senators, which the founding fathers (US-specific) agreed was bad because most people do not understand how taxes and budgeting work.

I want to be convinced that this is somehow different from the current system, but any example I see is either the same (but looks very different) or worse (this part is arguable, but I don’t think proportional voting on tax law would end well. Most people would certainly just end taxes if given the choice with little regard to the long-term consequences of this.)

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