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Divorce does funny things

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Re: Divorce does funny things

#231

Post by lp0_on_fire »

schwartzworld wrote: post #142
cm2012 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one thing to be upfront. "I love someone new, let's divorce / some other arrangement." There will be hurt feelings but that's life. The honesty will help everyone in the long run. It's entirely another thing to sneak around - to do something you promised not to do, but in secret, so you don't get caught. It is my observation and experience that the kind of person who breaks trust in secret is not someone I want…

> that the kind of person who breaks trust in secret Who has never lied or "broken trust in secret" in their lives? You'd hold someone forever accountable for making a horrible mistake that had nothing to do with you?

"horrible mistake"? This isn't an "oops I forgot to pick up milk on the way home from work" or "oops I got in a bar fight and had to spend the night in jail"

People who cheat do it consciously.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#232

Post by mensetmanusman »

MisterTea wrote: post #223
throwaway_sjfgd wrote: post #197

I am going through it right now too. Very short background: * Wife abusive from the beginning * Sexless marriage as she refused * Beating herself up for years * She's not earning (highly qualified) * Did not take care of child or home either * Tried to frame me however I figured and escaped * Living separately now * She filed false and frivolous violence complaint against me * Not letting me meet my child * Court gra…

> Wife abusive from the beginning People who get into these relationships always paint themselves as victims when everyone around them knew it was a disaster from the beginning. I just don't understand how they get there unless they willingly ignore signs of bad behavior or they think they can fix or change people. That or they're just stupid. I have a coworker in a bad relationship that seems to be headed towards ma…

It might be, but not always.

Family member’s wife started experiencing gradually pronounced schizophrenia over a few years and she became abusive to her husband until it ended with a short stay in a mental institute and then medication. She still wonders who she was at that time…

Some people suffer diabetes as they age, and more than you would guess start experiencing mental breakdown that can manifest as abuse to a partner.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#233

Post by rich_sasha »

rsj_hn wrote: post #228
rich_sasha wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, such attitudes leave a hefty footprint on the culture -- or if you prefer, take much longer to shake off than the regime that bred them, religious in this case. In Europe you can still very clearly see which countries have a protestant, "work hard or go to hell" attitude to life, and which have an, oddly, Catholic "let's enjoy life and see how it goes" approach. Religion participation rates have dwi…

Sure, but there is a difference between "being influenced by puritan culture along with many other historical forces" and "extremely puritan nation". I'm also not so sure about the accuracy of your Catholic stereotypes. The greatest German industry and wealth is in the Catholic south ("upper Germany"), for example, and not in the Protestant North or Northeast. Similarly there are huge differences between Northern and…

Well, for one, I'm not claiming that religious affiliation is a sole determinant of future success. Also, Prussia was subsequently steam-rolled by the USSR machine. But compare general attitudes in France, Italy, Spain vs. Netherlands and the Nordics. Or Austria vs. Germany.

I think the overall point is quite valid. If you look at a whole host of societal norms in the US, they will be quite puritanical, compared to a bunch of [formerly] Catholic places, even though the US is far more socially liberal than many (most?) Catholic countries.

You can always argue about what words to use to quantify, is it "extremely" puritan or merely "strongly influenced", not sure this can lead anywhere.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#234

Post by lp0_on_fire »

88840-8855 wrote: post #64
cm2012 wrote: post #58

On infidelity - to some extent people's personal business is not my business. But if I hear that someone was unfaithful to their spouse, my business trust in them goes waaay down. If they're willing to break trust with the person closest to them in their life, what chance do I have as a mere business partner of not being screwed over at some point?

i think that's a little naive. cheating is a highly emotional thing. business relationships are a rational thing. although some people are mixing both up, most of people i have worked with manage to separate. one of my moost loyal colleagues is cheating on his wife for years. and yet, he is loyal to the tasks and to the company. hence, i find your view a little naive and funny and perhaps would label it with some -is…

> one of my moost loyal colleagues is cheating on his wife for years. and yet, he is loyal to the tasks and to the company.

This loyal colleague was probably extremely loyal to his wife for a time, too.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#235

Post by throwaway_sjfgd »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #226
throwaway_sjfgd wrote: post #197

I am going through it right now too. Very short background: * Wife abusive from the beginning * Sexless marriage as she refused * Beating herself up for years * She's not earning (highly qualified) * Did not take care of child or home either * Tried to frame me however I figured and escaped * Living separately now * She filed false and frivolous violence complaint against me * Not letting me meet my child * Court gra…

Sorry that you are going through this, life is full of hardship, and divorce is a facet of death itself. “ Marriage as a notion itself feels wrong.” The notion of marriage has fractured into cultural subgroups as it has been redefined over the last century. One of the more interesting stats to me is that young people today don’t even put children in the top ten reasons for marriage like they did just 40 years ago. I’…

Per what I know and have read:

The emotional aspects of love last about seven years. After that, pragmatics and mutual understanding need to take over. We have invented the notion of marriage and seem to have overturned what nature may have intended to be.

Marriages predate written history. I cannot be sure what led to the concept, however, I can guess.

I have read that non-monogamy is more common in the world than what most people realize.

It seems to me that when the notion of marriage was brought in, people would have needed brainwashing into it. I see several cultural aspects around marriages, some still being followed, that hint this.

Then, of course, is the welfare of the children which is critically important.

I am chosing not to write more, but have perhaps hinted upon my viewpoints on this topic.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#236

Post by MisterTea »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #232
MisterTea wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wife abusive from the beginning People who get into these relationships always paint themselves as victims when everyone around them knew it was a disaster from the beginning. I just don't understand how they get there unless they willingly ignore signs of bad behavior or they think they can fix or change people. That or they're just stupid. I have a coworker in a bad relationship that seems to be headed towards ma…

It might be, but not always. Family member’s wife started experiencing gradually pronounced schizophrenia over a few years and she became abusive to her husband until it ended with a short stay in a mental institute and then medication. She still wonders who she was at that time… Some people suffer diabetes as they age, and more than you would guess start experiencing mental breakdown that can manifest as abuse to a…

Those situations are certainly understandable and forgivable.

But there are terrible people out there who for one reason or another desire to control and manipulate their partner. They may be sick but it does not excuse or justify continuous abusive behavior.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#237

Post by mensetmanusman »

Justin308 wrote: post #67
Johnny555 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Divorce is considerably easier for a childless couple. At least as long as the couple manages to be reasonably civil to each other. That doesn't make it "easy", but it is "easier" to not have a bond keeping you attached to the former spouse forever. My ex and I managed to share joint custody of our dog for years, until she moved away and we decided she should keep the dog. Much harder to do that with a child.

I went through this but with a child in the US. My ex wife decided to move away 3,000 miles away with our child. I spent a year fighting in court and spend $150k+ in lawyers fees. Being a man with a child under 6 y/o, you have almost no chance to block a mom to move away with the kid across the country. Most men think it won't happen to them, until their wife decides that "she's not happy". Even though the workforce…

Marriage Story was powerful. Also highly recommend.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#238

Post by mensetmanusman »

Divorce seems to be like a stab wound people carry around for years, especially for the children of divorce.

I find it fascinating how the topic is slipped into cultural story telling. E.g. The Tomorrow War SciFi about fighting aliens in the future actually being about the hardship of divorce.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#239

Post by rsj_hn »

rich_sasha wrote: post #233
rsj_hn wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but there is a difference between "being influenced by puritan culture along with many other historical forces" and "extremely puritan nation". I'm also not so sure about the accuracy of your Catholic stereotypes. The greatest German industry and wealth is in the Catholic south ("upper Germany"), for example, and not in the Protestant North or Northeast. Similarly there are huge differences between Northern and…

Well, for one, I'm not claiming that religious affiliation is a sole determinant of future success. Also, Prussia was subsequently steam-rolled by the USSR machine. But compare general attitudes in France, Italy, Spain vs. Netherlands and the Nordics. Or Austria vs. Germany. I think the overall point is quite valid. If you look at a whole host of societal norms in the US, they will be quite puritanical, compared to a…

> If you look at a whole host of societal norms in the US, they will be quite puritanical

Honestly, I don't see this and think it's both bad history and bad social commentary. Cities all across the country let people walk into a store and steal whatever they want without prosecution. Homeless people defecating in city squares. Higher levels of corruption and bribery than in Europe. Much more more crime and lawlessness than in Europe. Certainly doesn't seem puritanical to me.

If you are seriously interested in the U.S. founding, I'd recommend reading Albion's Seed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion's_Seed

Yes, there were puritans in New England. But also tobacco farmers in Virginia, Cavaliers, and Scotch-Irish and border English in the South, and the Spanish Catholic settlers in California and Florida. Incidentally the first European settlement of the US was Spanish Catholics. And then of course waves of primarily Catholic immigrants from Europe in the 1920s and the current wave of primarily Catholic immigrants from Latin America.

It might be interesting to note that historically the U.S. was viewed (by Europeans) as a corrupt, lawless country, made wealthy by enormous land/person ratios. It was only after WW1 that the U.S. began to flex its economic power but it still maintained a "gangster" reputation, and in fact was the home of many world famous gangsters and scoundrels, together with grifting machine politics in all the major urban cities from Boston's Irish machine that gave us the Kennedy dynasty to Huey Long's machine in the South and virtually everything in between. Puritan was simply not the first word that came to mind in any meaningful description of the U.S. dating from the 19th century onwards.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#240

Post by throwaway_sjfgd »

MisterTea wrote: post #223
throwaway_sjfgd wrote: post #197

I am going through it right now too. Very short background: * Wife abusive from the beginning * Sexless marriage as she refused * Beating herself up for years * She's not earning (highly qualified) * Did not take care of child or home either * Tried to frame me however I figured and escaped * Living separately now * She filed false and frivolous violence complaint against me * Not letting me meet my child * Court gra…

> Wife abusive from the beginning People who get into these relationships always paint themselves as victims when everyone around them knew it was a disaster from the beginning. I just don't understand how they get there unless they willingly ignore signs of bad behavior or they think they can fix or change people. That or they're just stupid. I have a coworker in a bad relationship that seems to be headed towards ma…

> ... as victims when everyone around them knew it was a disaster from the beginning. I just don't understand how they get there unless they willingly ignore signs of bad behavior

It may also be the other way around where they saw the disaster from the beginning whereas the others around failed to but kept on applying peer pressure, where the system fails to provide a functional exit path, or when the welfare of the children points in another direction during the transition phase.

Also, things can become worse gradually whereas the decision to walk out is discrete which makes the decision hard. At what point in time does one find themselves justified to flip. I see several other areas where the same conundrum applies.

I have already written more in other comments.

> You reap what you sew

Never hold this against yourself or others without knowing the specifics and considering the entire picture. I tell this to everyone. People are genuinely victims at times for no fault of theirs. Of course, the other side is more common where people incorrectly keep blaming others.

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