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Divorce does funny things

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Re: Divorce does funny things

#211

Post by op00to »

vecinu wrote: post #128

As a recently ( Obviously therapy is a good first resource and then working on yourself going forward is a good strategy but man, I can totally understand how some men are obliterated when children are involved and the other spouse is out for blood. I consider myself lucky that it happened before I got too old, had children and who knows what other things could have happened but damn, it still hurts.

I have a buddy who is going through this. He’s far away, but I still want to help. What can I do?

Re: Divorce does funny things

#212

Post by rich_sasha »

vecinu wrote: post #128

As a recently ( Obviously therapy is a good first resource and then working on yourself going forward is a good strategy but man, I can totally understand how some men are obliterated when children are involved and the other spouse is out for blood. I consider myself lucky that it happened before I got too old, had children and who knows what other things could have happened but damn, it still hurts.

Good luck, I can only imagine how awful it must be.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#213

Post by op00to »

cm2012 wrote: post #58

On infidelity - to some extent people's personal business is not my business. But if I hear that someone was unfaithful to their spouse, my business trust in them goes waaay down. If they're willing to break trust with the person closest to them in their life, what chance do I have as a mere business partner of not being screwed over at some point?

This. I had a therapist who cheated on his wife and got divorced. He was a shitbag that in retrospect set back many parts of my mental health for years.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#214

Post by Demonsult »

me_me_me wrote: post #162
dlsa wrote: post #81

If you have much to do with family court you'd fully understand why suicide is a way out for men treated like sources of money with little other value. It would be quite educational for all men to attend family court as an observer prior to marriage. They might reconsider marriage as an institution altogether. Society itself might have to realise how badly things are set up. Maybe not. Everything's fine. Enjoy your s…

> They might reconsider marriage as an institution altogether. While I dont disagree with your statements, the statistics don't lie. Men in marriage live longer and healthier lives on average to men in long-term relationships and to single men.

Or are healthy, well-adjusted men just more likely to end up married?

Re: Divorce does funny things

#215

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

refurb wrote: post #202
simonh wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is in many cultures, or social groups, extra-marital affairs (usually for men) are normalised and accepted. It's simply not seen as a trust or fairness issue. And yes this can be mysogynistic and abusive, but these attitudes do exist.

I live in one of those cultures today and I’d emphasize the “tolerated” part. Not that dissimilar to physically hitting your spouse. Nobody likes it but feel powerless to change it. But I wouldn’t say it’s viewed positively or even neutrally.

> I live in one of those cultures today and I’d emphasize the “tolerated” part. Not that dissimilar to physically hitting your spouse.

It has absolutely nothing in common with hitting your spouse. It is extremely frowned upon to openly display it but relatively accepted if it's discreet. It's very correlated to the relation a population has to sex. People in very religious countries where sex is seen as moraly dubious have very strong view against infidelity and people in countries with a more casual view of sex don't think it's such a big deal.

France is a relatively extreme example. The last Pew Research Center study shows that only 47% of the French thinks that infidelity is moraly unacceptable and there is no large gap between women and men answers.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#216

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #165
MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention men get no benefit out of marriage anymore. I mean there was some book I remember reading on reddit from the 1920s or 40s where women were not supposed to reject their husbands advances. Now you could be tried for sexual assault as a couple ffs. On top of this, divorce universally screws over men. When you create incentive programs such as divorce, a population doesnt take long to adapt to the institut…

> Not to mention men get no benefit out of marriage anymore. I mean there was some book I remember reading on reddit from the 1920s or 40s where women were not supposed to reject their husbands advances. Now you could be tried for sexual assault as a couple ffs. On top of this, divorce universally screws over men. God this is creepy. If someone doesn't want to have sex with you, and you force them to, that's rape.

It was the culture for a lot longer than the US ever existed you know. Obviously it's not right but it goes to show how marriage used to be a construct for men. I can't see how being a perpetual friend who rarely has sex warranting marriage.

That was my point though (as weird as it is). The incentive structure has changed now that sex can often be a "only for children" or "I'm not feeling it this month sweetie" experience. Enough men see this on top of other negative aspects of marriage and have it ingrained in them that they won't even risk it. You're safer to establish a business then dissolve it upon "dissolution of the relationship-business" than you are to get married. Cause the government treats business members equally but treat divorces unequally.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#217

Post by simonh »

refurb wrote: post #202
simonh wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is in many cultures, or social groups, extra-marital affairs (usually for men) are normalised and accepted. It's simply not seen as a trust or fairness issue. And yes this can be mysogynistic and abusive, but these attitudes do exist.

I live in one of those cultures today and I’d emphasize the “tolerated” part. Not that dissimilar to physically hitting your spouse. Nobody likes it but feel powerless to change it. But I wouldn’t say it’s viewed positively or even neutrally.

Sure, fair enough, but it's not generally seen as anything to do with e.g. reliability as a business partner. I used to do a lot of work in parts of the world like this.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#219

Post by ameminator »

It's surprising to me that this article, which was mostly about the life of a man on an oil rig, could inspire such discussion about divorce.

Obviously, divorce touches on a very fundamental part of many people's lives (especially, it seems, for men) - and we so rarely discuss it. It's amazing to me that there are so few places to talk about this, that the comments section on a short character piece (which in all honesty, barely discusses the problems in a divorce and did not present a single statistic) seems one of the few places where people do share. Maybe this is something to think about for the people untouched by divorce, and who can avoid its pitfalls before the "bullet hits the bone", unlike the rest of us.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#220

Post by throwaway_sjfgd »

vmception wrote: post #207
throwaway_sjfgd wrote: post #197

I am going through it right now too. Very short background: * Wife abusive from the beginning * Sexless marriage as she refused * Beating herself up for years * She's not earning (highly qualified) * Did not take care of child or home either * Tried to frame me however I figured and escaped * Living separately now * She filed false and frivolous violence complaint against me * Not letting me meet my child * Court gra…

I want to ask you about this, in hindsight do you think it would work better for your mental health if you didn't care as much? Like, I can read this and see that alimony is a persistent threat and reality that comes as a byproduct of being successful in my aspirations. I can just assume that it is in my future if I pursue certain kinds of relationships. 30-50% of marriages fail (the lower bound being more applicable…

I am (trying) doing that all along, and there is no other option anyway. So the question you have is not really applicable.

Notes on why one can't just 'not care' for mental health:

* Prior to separation, it could not be ignored as it used to happen nearly daily, which for me involved her beating herself up badly, shouting at the max of her voice, with my child also seeing all that and feeling helpless. Those around and the lawyers told me that if the wife makes any false allegation against me, I'll be doomed for a long time. And it has ultimately gone that route. (One should not ideally let it get this bad, exit timely, etc., however it is not that straightforward in practice.)

* With the lawsuits going on, there is a lot of work involved. It's more than a fulltime job in itself along with the usual fulltime job. This is because the wife just makes random false claims, which does not even require them to think. It's the defendent who has to research and file documents to show that she is making lies. Even with no expectation of benefit from the legal system, it needs to be done anyways as the situation would only be worse if not done. While in theory it's 'innocent until proven guilty', that does not mean in practice that the hard work is before the wife. The hard work is still before the husband. So even if you try to, you cannot ignore the legal work that continues and brings functional stress.

* There is a moral responsibility towards the welfare of the child. So just letting go does not fit.

* I see many men give up. They yield to the unjust and frivolous demands of the wife to avoid the above stresses. Giving up encourages more women and their unscrupolous lawyers to do the same, which would go on to make lives of other people worse. Hence, there is a moral responsibility to keep trying hard for justice for sake of others as well.

* Even if one is able to mentally let go of what is happening, there are things missing from life, which I sorely miss. Psychology research only says that it's very tough and leads to depression, etc. I have myself read a lot besides having professional help. If someone were to ask me "If you know and understand so much, are wise, how come you are still in so much pain?", my answer, because even the theory says so. Not easy to circumvent the theory!

* And so on.

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