Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 276 posts

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#31

Post by timcederman »

bignoggins wrote: post #11
kelleyk wrote: post #4

There are a number of points I'd like to disagree with, but to start: - $150,000 is much less than a top-flight engineer like the one you're describing might make; it's not out of the realm of possibility for what an engineer with a good pedigree might make his first year out of school, if he went to work for a big company. - The engineer went to school for four/five/six years and then went to work. The doctor who ea…

150K right out of school? I've never heard of anyone making that much in the valley, maybe 100K tops.

I've heard $130k for top students is not uncommon.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#32

Post by thalur »

bignoggins wrote: post #18

I think one of the reasons programmers are not paid as much is that by and large, we are seen as interchangeable cogs. There are definitely exceptions, but I think the companies that think this way are large enough to set the market rate. For example, I used to work for a large defense company that probably had more software engineers than every startup in the world combined (we hired 10% of all CS graduates in the c…

"Programmers are interchangeable" seems to come up quite a lot, but I don't think we have a monopoly on it: celebrities (where it is the individual's brand that sells) are the only example that aren't interchangeable that comes to mind.

One thing that may disadvantage us is that programmers are still one big blob: we don't define our specialities strongly enough to the outside world (or to ourselves). For example, teachers have their subjects: one might consider two maths teachers interchangeable but not a maths teacher and a French teacher, and that is obvious to a non-teacher. You and I might see the absurdity with swapping a web programmer for an embedded safety-critical systems programmer, but I don't think it is at all obvious to the outside world.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#33

Post by benmmurphy »

wheels wrote: post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

he does have a point. lawyers and doctors both work in industries that are protected. anybody can come off the street and start slinging code. you can't come off the street and start lawyering and doing surgery even if you were more capable than the average doctor or lawyer.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#35

Post by apetresc »

bignoggins wrote: post #11
kelleyk wrote: post #4

There are a number of points I'd like to disagree with, but to start: - $150,000 is much less than a top-flight engineer like the one you're describing might make; it's not out of the realm of possibility for what an engineer with a good pedigree might make his first year out of school, if he went to work for a big company. - The engineer went to school for four/five/six years and then went to work. The doctor who ea…

150K right out of school? I've never heard of anyone making that much in the valley, maybe 100K tops.

It's definitely not outside of the realm of possibility. I know several people at that level right out of university (undergrad)

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#37

Post by nostrademons »

alsoathrowaway wrote: post #8

I think you're misrepresenting a few things, so I'll take a stab at it: 1. Senior software engineers at Google in Mountain View make over $200k all told. 2. Senior software engineer is in the middle of the Google ladder. The bulk of engineers at Google are senior level, so it's not special. The very best engineers make more. 3. You are vastly overstating the salary and difficulty of other fields. 3a. Doctor - You hav…

2. It's not actually "the bulk" of engineers - I heard Senior SWE + above is something like the 30% of engineers. However, the age range is off; typically Senior SWEs at Google are about 26-32, depending on what their past career was. Someone who's 35 and of Google caliber (i.e. same intelligence as a doctor, lawyer, or management consultant) would usually be at least Staff and have some management responsibilities.

4. This is pretty key. Most of the top engineers I know at Google aren't paid $150K, they're paid millions via acquisition, stock grants, or insane counter-offer.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#38

Post by mnutt »

hollerith wrote: post #12
mnutt wrote: post #9

One of the many differences between programming and medicine, law, etc is that entry into the latter fields is tightly controlled by governing bodies. Anybody can read a programming book and start working, but only so many law students graduate each year. So in that sense it's not that programmers' salaries are artificially low, it's that those other professions pay artificially well.

At least in the U.S., there is no effective pressure by the profession to keep the number of practicing lawyers low.

Ah, you're right. Though while it doesn't put a hard limit on the number of lawyers, it does limit the number somewhat by the requirement that you have to attend 3 years of an accredited university and then pass the bar exam.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#39

Post by hessenwolf »

To the business world, you work in IT. They don't understand the difference between the person who plugs in the monitor and the person who designs their perfectly modularised accounting software landscape.

It sucks, but there is a major education gap amongst non-techs about what computer people do.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#40

Post by anonymoushn »

hollerith wrote: post #12
mnutt wrote: post #9

One of the many differences between programming and medicine, law, etc is that entry into the latter fields is tightly controlled by governing bodies. Anybody can read a programming book and start working, but only so many law students graduate each year. So in that sense it's not that programmers' salaries are artificially low, it's that those other professions pay artificially well.

At least in the U.S., there is no effective pressure by the profession to keep the number of practicing lawyers low.

If you know the law but do not have a law degree, you cannot take the bar examination in most states. In California and less than four other states, you can do something like an apprenticeship in order to qualify instead, but (in California) you must be at least 23 to begin. A friend of mine with a solid understanding of the law and a desire to practice law cannot enter the profession because he is not 23 and does not have truckloads of money.
Post reply on HN