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David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

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141–150 of 194 posts

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To name just one of Graeber's essential lies: he makes the claim that Federal Reserve issuing American debt is privately controlled and weaves an extensive chapter based in fundamental ways on this misapprehension. No, he does not. This is the only passage I can find where Graeber comes close to what you claim he wrote: “The Federal Reserve—despite the name—is technically not part of the government at all, but a pe…

I actually followed the Graeber-DeLong argument when it broke, and found Graeber to be quite unhinged. In one tweet I found memorable, he accuses DeLong of "war crimes" -- presumably for supporting free trade or neoliberal economics or something[1]. At other points he threatened legal action. But it doesn't matter, really. Graeber knew the target audience on HN wasn't aware of the debate--why would most of them be aw…

As an aside, you may also enjoy David Graeber's meltdown during the Crooked Timber symposium on his debt work:

https://crookedtimber.org/2012/04/02/seminar-on-debt-the-fir...

Just search for "de-legitimization". Again, he doesn't bother to respond to any actual points raised and just exercises a whole lot of ad-hominem - and unlike with Brad, someone like henry Farrel is much more of a fellow traveller.

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#142
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

David Graeber had an account here and defended himself from DeLong's accusations in a comment [1]. They even had an exchange in that thread. At best I think DeLong has been pretty uncharitable to Graeber. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17163449

DeLong was definitely trolling Graeber, but Graeber brought it on himself with overreaction to reviews which brought up the error. (A reviewer opened an article by saying it was an impressive book he was considering setting as a text for his students and a few paragraphs of summary of points Graeber made which are good, before highlighting a mistake and another argument he considered weak. Graeber wrote a screed abou…

I'd accept that. OP's submission has a good example where Graeber's difficulty taking criticism almost cost him and Wengrow a publication which was saved by Wengrow's more measured approach.

He and Wengrow were serious in a certain sense: They were determined to publish extracts in peer-reviewed journals, to establish scholarly credibility. When they made their first submission, to the Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute, they received brief comments dismissing their work as insufficiently “new.” Graeber was immediately distressed, convinced the anonymous reviewers had “some ax to grind.” Wengrow managed to calm him down while he replied on their behalf. Politely, Wengrow asked for examples of where exactly work like theirs had appeared before. The Journal was unable to produce any. It accepted the paper. Graeber was amazed. “How do you do that?” Wengrow remembers him marveling. “The man did not know how to handle stress,” another friend told me. A heated exchange on Twitter could derail him. Still, he refused to shy away. One persistent bugbear was the Berkeley economist Brad DeLong — after DeLong’s blog took him to task for a handful of factual errors in Debt, the two became entrenched in a protracted flamewar. (DeLong recently resurfaced, amid positive press for The Dawn of Everything, to affirm his stance that “nothing David Graeber writes is trustable.”)

I'd missed the claim about Keynes on first reading. I suppose it would have to be The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money. It appears to be very difficult for one person to write a historical treatise of such scope and breadth without making a nontrivial number of sloppy errors. There's so much surface area of things that could go wrong relative to the powers of human attention and working memory. I recall Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy which also has no shortage of sloppy errors and dubious ancillary claims despite Russell's reputation as a careful thinker.

I greatly enjoyed reading Debt. It gave me a new and valuable perspective on many things. I would not trust it alone as a source for any particular factual claim and would carefully check the references as needed, but as a whole I found the core arguments compelling. (That said, I think the overall level of scholarship is actually quite good and I would extend this same caution to any large work synthesizing many sources.) Like you said, it's a thought-provoking book.

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#143
post #134

Seems to me people such as Graeber are concentrated in the USA and only fight entrenched hierarchy there. And the US academia keeps attracting excellent people from all over the world. Is that really the best place to influence history? I think they could have bigger impact elsewhere, for example the fall of Iron Curtain was incredible opportunity but neocons snatched that quickly. Going to war zone like Rojava is ot…

He was at Goldsmiths from 2008 to 2013 and professor at the LSE after that, hardly only in the US.

From my POV London may as well be in the US. Same kind of deeply entrenched system, not amenable toward anarchy at all.

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually followed the Graeber-DeLong argument when it broke, and found Graeber to be quite unhinged. In one tweet I found memorable, he accuses DeLong of "war crimes" -- presumably for supporting free trade or neoliberal economics or something[1]. At other points he threatened legal action. But it doesn't matter, really. Graeber knew the target audience on HN wasn't aware of the debate--why would most of them be aw…

As an aside, you may also enjoy David Graeber's meltdown during the Crooked Timber symposium on his debt work: https://crookedtimber.org/2012/04/02/seminar-on-debt-the-fir... Just search for "de-legitimization". Again, he doesn't bother to respond to any actual points raised and just exercises a whole lot of ad-hominem - and unlike with Brad, someone like henry Farrel is much more of a fellow traveller.

If you read the critiques that Graeber discusses, you’ll see they’re exactly as he describes: instead of addressing Graeber’s arguments, they instead insinuate that his ideas are not worth addressing (after using the silly Apple error to dismiss Graeber’s entire body of work).

Notably, he does respond to their actual points, at length and to such an extent that copying and pasting an example which includes both Farrel’s critique and Graeber’s response would dwarf my words in this reply. are we even reading the same article?

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm ashamed to admit I've never actually read any of Graeber's books, even though I'm fairly anarchist-leaning. I really need to change that. I didn't even know that he finished another one before he died, so I guess I'll have to add that to my list as well.

I am not an anarchist at all but I think he has some very good criticisms of a lot of fundamental beliefs among modern day economists. Economics as a profession is built upon a set of axioms or premises about human nature and society. Graeber cannot go toe to toe with modern economists with their equations but he does a brilliant job of tearing apart the assumptions of economists within the classical school of though…

If you think "Debt: first 5000 years" is brilliant job a tearing apart assumtions of economics you don't know anything about economics.

In fact is a pretty embracing takedown of strawmen he set up as how he imagines economists.

He very clearly has so much distaste for economist that he couldn't even be bother to actually research the history of economics. He makes so many fundamental mistakes that are so embracing, he clearly doesn't want debate. He basically sees economists as evil and he doesn't need to know more.

> I am surprised the ideas in these books have not become more widely known on the political left.

I don't know '5000 ...' was widely read by anybody that fancied himself a intellectual liberal. The problem is that the book doesn't real proscribe anything practical so it does not actually translate into any coherent political position.

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not an anarchist at all but I think he has some very good criticisms of a lot of fundamental beliefs among modern day economists. Economics as a profession is built upon a set of axioms or premises about human nature and society. Graeber cannot go toe to toe with modern economists with their equations but he does a brilliant job of tearing apart the assumptions of economists within the classical school of though…

I think modern economists have been acknowledging and quantifying the flaws in simplifying assumptions in economic models for decades [1]. That being said, I do think there is a serious problem in the way economics is often taught, and things like debt (and more broadly, anthropology) is part of the cure [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_economics [2] https://ravik.substack.com/p/does-learning-economic…

Behavioral economcis is just one branch. The idea that economists always believed humans were 100% rational decision makers has never ever been true.

That just a strawmen that Garber and co set up. Anybody that actually studies the history of economics knows this.

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#147

He epitomized, embodied how and what public intellectuals should be, should aspire to: the a willingness to ask hard questions, to challenge conventional preconceived notions. It seems like academia these days is more about maintaining the status quo. If your ideas are engineering debate, it means you're doing your job.

Being incredibly rude to people who disagreeing with him. Accusing anybody that find flaws in his book as being pawn of capitalism. Doing poor research and ignoring all the evidence that doesn't fit his model. Putting anthropology above other social sciences. What an amazing guy.

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#148

How do people on HN deal with the potential disappearance of work altogether ? physical labour -> boston dynamics office labour -> ~cloud + smartphones (i'm in an office job right now, and it's near zero work, it's full on redundancy, ambiguous and contradictory information, political friction.. any computer could replace the entire building and operate faster 24/7) it's really not a huge stretch to predict 90% of ta…

The largest potential for disappearance of works has already happened.

It was called the industrial revolution, and literally since then the smartest intellectual have predicted mass unemployment and the disappearance of work.

Endlessly the same prediction with endlessly the same argument only to be proven wrong over and over.

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#149

It's a well-written biography and Graeber comes across as a great guy but on the other hand the Brad DeLong takedown linked in the article [1] is quite something. I'm wondering how he wrote a 500 page book on debt without really understanding banking? [1] https://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2013/01/the-very-last-david-g...

Honestly I'm not a fan of DeLong and I don't even think this is a particularly good breakdown of Graeber.

I would just encourage people to actually go and learn about the history of economics. The cristal clear that Graeber has nothing but distatest for economists and he can't be bothered to read into it at all.

For him, economists are just evil pawns of Capitalism that need to be destroyed.

Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds

#150
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you summarize three of these paradigm shifts?

Lol this sounds like a class assignment. E.g. the origins of agriculture. It's going from the idea of having a single point of origin to multiple (~15-20) points of origins around the world. Another major shift in thinking about agriculture is realizing it wasn't so much of a technological advancement (indeed agricultural people had radically reduced lifespans, less leisure time, more disease, etc) as something peopl…

Thanks! That’s helpful. I was a little bit aware of these paradigm shifts, and it’s useful to know that Graeber was important in discovering and/or popularizing them.
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