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Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

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Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#201

Post by rglover »

bdougherty wrote: post #143
rglover wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surgical = "It checks a diff of what the component rendered before an update vs. after and then only patches or updates the parts of the DOM that need to be changed (as opposed to replacing the entire DOM, which is slow)." Similar to React. Svelte may not be using the exact same mechanisms but this is in the ballpark. Virtual DOM is just an in-memory representation of the DOM that describes which child elements (e.g.…

There is no diff going on with Svelte. And there doesn't need to be an in-memory representation of anything. Because it is compiling the code, it knows exactly what will change and in response to what. https://svelte.dev/repl/7161f10f8eb645d8984fb231a0bc3982?ver... For example in that repl, you can see that it makes a call to `$$invalidate` when the input value changes (see `input_input_handler()`) which triggers a `…

This is a cool approach, thank you for sharing that link.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#202

Post by tpict »

cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

JSX is syntactic sugar for `React.createElement(...)` (most commonly), so React pretty much is plain JavaScript.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#203

Post by SparkyMcUnicorn »

d23 wrote: post #186
cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

As a backend guy who moved away from frontend long ago for these very reasons, I have to ask: why are people downvoting this? Is it wrong? I'm genuinely asking, because from a bystander's point of view, it certainly seems like the pattern of the Framework Du Jour hasn't really slowed down much in the frontend community.

I didn't downvote, but I'll speak to my experience.

First off, you don't have to go learning every framework out there. Pick one and stick with it, or just go vanilla. That said, The features these frameworks provide gives a boost in productivity that far outweighs the low learning curve.

My pick was VueJS and I'm very happy with it. Using Single File Components is pretty similar to vanilla HTML/JS/CSS. Beginners that were under my guidance (with only HTML/CSS/JS experience) usually pick it up and were productive in the same day.

I disagree that React (JSX) is most similar to vanilla JS/HTML at all (I don't prefer it, but to each their own). Vue and Svelte are much further on the side of a vanilla-ish approach.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#204

Post by spoils19 »

dceddia wrote: post #174
vips7L wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you look at .Net solutions like Maui, xamarin, uno platform, or AvaloniaUI?

My thought process was, if I’m gonna have to rewrite the app, I may as well use the web dev skills I already have, so that at least the UI work will be in my wheelhouse. Rust is new to me, as is low-level ffmpeg stuff, both of which I’ve had to learn from scratch. I learned Swift in order to build the Mac app, and I know from that experience that building custom UI controls while learning a new ecosystem slowed me do…

Sounds like an easier process for you, but at the cost of your users. This proliferation of web tooling when it clearly doesn't suit the environment (desktop) is part of the reason why our software is getting slower, even as our hardware is improving.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#205

Post by wishinghand »

d23 wrote: post #186
cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

As a backend guy who moved away from frontend long ago for these very reasons, I have to ask: why are people downvoting this? Is it wrong? I'm genuinely asking, because from a bystander's point of view, it certainly seems like the pattern of the Framework Du Jour hasn't really slowed down much in the frontend community.

It's a false truth that anyone has to learn yet another one of these. Even Angular 1 and Backbone.js are still in production.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#206

Post by rglover »

cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

You'd like https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick.

No special languages or syntax. Plain HTML, CSS, and JavaScript with the same reactive UI stuff in all the other frameworks. It's also part of a full-stack framework so you can whip up lightweight, fast apps.

The best part is your skills are transferrable as I'm not introducing any domain-specific abstractions. You can go from learning HTML, CSS, and JS to this without any "gotcha" in the process.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#207

Post by fron »

RoboticWater wrote: post #196
cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

For all the use cases I deal with on a regular basis, Svelte looks more like vanilla HTML/JS than any equivalent React code. And the reason these things change is because that's what needed changing . One of the topline features of Svelte is that is has less boilerplate than React, and it achieves that quite handily. Unless you're criticizing particular constructs in Svelte that are unjustifiably different, I don't t…

> but the idea of having to learn different language constructs for loops and the like doesn't seem that herculean of a task.

I agree. As long as you understand the basic concepts, it's only a matter of learning the syntax, which is really not as big of a deal as the person you replied to is making it out to be.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#208

Post by locallost »

d23 wrote: post #186
cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

As a backend guy who moved away from frontend long ago for these very reasons, I have to ask: why are people downvoting this? Is it wrong? I'm genuinely asking, because from a bystander's point of view, it certainly seems like the pattern of the Framework Du Jour hasn't really slowed down much in the frontend community.

It might be true, but it's a rant that just barely touches the actual topic, which is mostly: a company will pay somebody to work full time on an open source project that is still independent. And I think it's pretty nice. And also I think Rich Harris has given a lot to people for free and I'm happy for him that he will be paid to work on something that he loves.

So all in all it would be nice if we would for once be spared of rants how tiring, immature, half baked whatever whatever the JavaScript world is. Show us maybe how it should be really done, but maybe in a separate post please.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#209

Post by rglover »

d23 wrote: post #186
cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

As a backend guy who moved away from frontend long ago for these very reasons, I have to ask: why are people downvoting this? Is it wrong? I'm genuinely asking, because from a bystander's point of view, it certainly seems like the pattern of the Framework Du Jour hasn't really slowed down much in the frontend community.

No, it's not wrong, it's absolutely correct. There's a lot of flexing around who can come up with the most elegant abstraction which ignores the important point: making sure what's necessary to understand the framework, use it long-term, and move away from it after is focusing on the core technologies of the web (HTML, CSS, and JavaScript).

The abstractions are cool, but completely unnecessary (see link to my framework above where I circumvent that problem entirely).

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#210

Post by hijodelsol »

cphoover wrote: post #182

I'm tired of having to learn yet another templating language without a very compelling reason. Why do I have to learn, what is essentially, a new programming language for each of these frameworks (Angular, Svelte, Vue, React... Do I really need to learn yet another language construct for stuff like `loops`, `if/else`, event handlers...etc. Why must all of these frameworks re-invent the wheel? At least with React it i…

For me Vue 3 with get's pretty close to pure JavaScript/TypeScript. 90% of the code will be exactly like JS code, the only difference being the use of computed(), ref() and reactive() to achieve (something JS simply doesn't provide but is necessary for every non-trivial application). Your HTML code and CSS code are not mixed with JS and look and feel like the real thing as well. Other than the reactivity indication and the occasional onMounted(), etc. Vue 3 with does away with all boilerplate and unidiomatic parts of Vue 2 and imo is the framework that most closely resembles pure HTML/CSS/JS while allowing for far greater productivity.
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