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Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

reuters.com

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Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#41

Post by mistrial9 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #4
rectang wrote: post #3

If the worst case scenario happens and Tuvalu is submerged, how will the state manage to survive even without territory? Is that in the best interest of its citizens? Can any of the nation's collective wealth be preserved, either in the form of an enduring landless state as proposed, or by in some way transferring that wealth as the citizens emigrate somewhere else? Or is this proposal the futile death throes of a st…

These nations will need to make arrangements to migrate to welcoming host nations, that will allow for local governance similar to how tribal lands work in the US. Wealth could be preserved by seeking restitution from nations according to lifetime emissions (which has led to sea level rise), and creating a trust to manage and distribute the returns from those funds invested to citizens where ever they are. Once subme…

we have a group of Pacific Islanders from "somewhere" that relocated into an underused Church property on the next block here.. there is a large parking area and apartments, in addition to the Church itself. The building was obviously lonely, then, presto! full of people.. they speak in a native language and there are a lot of them, all ages.. it has food and events several times a month or more now.. must have been hundreds of people

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#42

Post by rbanffy »

beervirus wrote: post #34

Pure theater. > Kofe said he delivered the video address, scheduled to be aired at COP26 on Tuesday, in a place that used to be dry land, adding that Tuvalu was seeing a lot of coastal erosion. Coastal erosion, not climate change, not rising sea levels.

"Since 1993, sea levels have risen about 0.5cm (0.2 inches) per year, according to a 2011 Australian government report."

That's 14 cm of elevation on sea level alone.

Coastal erosion can be mitigated, but I don't think Tuvalu has the resources to build and deploy the required amount of breakwaters required to protect the island themselves. Climate change is something that has to be addressed at a global level.

edit: math correction

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#43

Post by ahevia »

advice_thrwawy9 wrote: post #30
nharada wrote: post #12

So have we moved from "climate change isn't real" to "it's real but we aren't gonna do anything"? Nobody making long term plans is questioning the science of it, they're just trying to figure out how to be the last ones to starve.

If we were really going to prevent catastrophic climate change the realistic time to act would have be probably 50-70 years ago. I've become fairly patient with climate deniers over the years since it is both a difficult to imagine idea and contains serious amounts of existential dread, making it very hard to reason about. Because of the latter I don't know anyone, climate scientists and myself included, that aren't…

Much of what you say is true. We could theoretically still avoid catastrophic change and stay below 1.5 degrees but I’m increasingly doubtful of that after COP26 and pitiful net zero (instead of net negative) commitments

Solar Geoengineering is something that could be considered. It is underfunded these days but we should do a better job of studying & modeling it’s effects if we ever hope to deploy it. Heck I think these island nations should deploy geoengineering techniques today. Albeit that last statement is partially in jest because the technology isn’t there yet. (It could have downstream consequences in the rest of the world, but clearly the rest of the world has geoengineered the climate using fossil fuels. These nations deserve a chance to protect their homes even if the method is drastic.)

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#44

Post by pkphilip »

cblconfederate wrote: post #25
pkphilip wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can become a nation where citizens live on boats (if they are ok with that) or on dwellings that exist over water.. or they can increase the height of their island by bringing soil from elsewhere.. or they can make their own islands.

I dont think the UN can recognize that as a state with territory, territorial waters, EEZ etc.

Why not? many countries make their own islands, adjust their coast lands and do other sorts of geoengineering. Building tall platforms isn't that controversial either.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#45

Post by FredPret »

pkphilip wrote: post #23
rectang wrote: post #3

If the worst case scenario happens and Tuvalu is submerged, how will the state manage to survive even without territory? Is that in the best interest of its citizens? Can any of the nation's collective wealth be preserved, either in the form of an enduring landless state as proposed, or by in some way transferring that wealth as the citizens emigrate somewhere else? Or is this proposal the futile death throes of a st…

They can become a nation where citizens live on boats (if they are ok with that) or on dwellings that exist over water.. or they can increase the height of their island by bringing soil from elsewhere.. or they can make their own islands.

Getting strong Neal Stephenson vibes!

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#46

Post by FredPret »

AutumnCurtain wrote: post #21
ocschwar wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, a nation with a thriving Polynesian culture is probably the best place to collect atoll refugees.

And a liberal democracy that prizes multiculturalism, I absolutely agree they are a good fit. You get all that human capital and goodwill too, it's good business.

Probably going to help make their damn rugby team even stronger too!

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#47

Post by rbanffy »

bobthechef wrote: post #22

Why not build a system of dikes around the island? What about poldering? Is that feasible here? The island is only 26 square kilometers.

I don't think it's feasible with local resources. Breakwaters would help with coastal erosion, but, if done wrong, would cause enormous damage to coastal ecosystems.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#49

Post by HamburgerEmoji »

Hamuko wrote: post #37
beervirus wrote: post #34

Pure theater. > Kofe said he delivered the video address, scheduled to be aired at COP26 on Tuesday, in a place that used to be dry land, adding that Tuvalu was seeing a lot of coastal erosion. Coastal erosion, not climate change, not rising sea levels.

> Coastal erosion is the loss or displacement of land, or the long-term removal of sediment and rocks along the coastline due to the action of waves, currents, tides, wind-driven water, waterborne ice, or other impacts of storms. > According to the IPCC, sea level rise caused by climate change will increase coastal erosion worldwide, significantly changing the coasts and low-lying coastal areas. Interesting.

Check any of the NOAA charts and chances are excellent that you'll see the seas rising at, say, 2mm/year, and that there has been no acceleration in the rate for over a hundred years. https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends_us.html

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#50

Post by bencoder »

rbanffy wrote: post #42
beervirus wrote: post #34

Pure theater. > Kofe said he delivered the video address, scheduled to be aired at COP26 on Tuesday, in a place that used to be dry land, adding that Tuvalu was seeing a lot of coastal erosion. Coastal erosion, not climate change, not rising sea levels.

"Since 1993, sea levels have risen about 0.5cm (0.2 inches) per year, according to a 2011 Australian government report." That's 14 cm of elevation on sea level alone. Coastal erosion can be mitigated, but I don't think Tuvalu has the resources to build and deploy the required amount of breakwaters required to protect the island themselves. Climate change is something that has to be addressed at a global level. edit:…

14cm, not 1.4m
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