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The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

theintercept.com

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Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#261

Post by JasonFruit »

RNCTX wrote: post #244
JasonFruit wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fourth amendment doesn't address the case where people voluntarily provide information to a third party which contracts with the government to pass it on. It's indicative of the attitude we should have in the matter, but it's not basis enough for a legitimate Supreme Court opinion — not that that will prevent one being given, mind you. There really does need to be a law preventing government from contracting with…

The amendment doesn't say "secure from government" or "secure from law enforcement." It just says "secure." A person cannot sell themselves into slavery. Yet we allow the US government to endorse indentured servitude for immigrant labor, because corporations want indentured servitude. Nor can a US citizen sign away workplace safety rights, legally. Yet we allow US construction companies to rampantly hire off-the-book…

I think you're making the opposite argument from what you hope to. You start off suggesting that the fourth amendment might apply here, but then point out that in every analogous case you can think of, the court has declined to stand up for people wronged by government acting through corporations. What makes you think they would do differently here? More to the point, why do you want the judicial branch to exercise legislative power in this, or any, case?

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#262

Post by sumedh »

kiba wrote: post #232
ukd1 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, nothing is being searched or seized here; it seems like people gave up their personal data, ignored or didn't read a ToS, and companies are selling it - not being forced to give it up. I don't like it, but does it mean it's illegal?

Nobody reads ToS. Doesn't mean people should give up their personal data. Maybe it should be illegal?

> Maybe it should be illegal?

Then Congress has to pass a law to make it illegal.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#263

Post by salawat »

mc32 wrote: post #193
salawat wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...Excuse me? Is there a way that could be better rephrased? What was the option for what? You're replying to a post about discriminating against a divorcee, but having the landlord hide it behind the justification of "bad credit". Not to be the missing antecedent police, but are you referring to by 'ther option' the pre-existing excuse to paper over arbitrary discrimination, or to practice of lending/renting in gene…

I hear ya. A landlady could very well find out someone is an Antivaxxer who lost their good job and took a lesser job and now has degraded credit and may deny the lease or may want bigger advance. What do you suppose is a better tool you have or would build which hides this person’s history but can vouch for their creditworthiness or lack of it?

>What do you suppose is a better tool you have or would build which hides this person’s history but can vouch for their creditworthiness or lack of it?

I'm still lost on the part where we're stuck on having to be able to lookup a datastore managed by some private party in order to facilitate these arrangements?

I have no interest in perpetuating the credit bureau system. If you're convinced that it's some priceless fixture we must have, then we can talk about setting up a public Bureau; with strict regulations around what type of information they collect, how it is used, how it is dispensed, etc, security measures around its access, but most importantly, synchronous notification of the reported on by the Bureau, with services provided to the notified to aid in prompt remedy, or failing that a means dispute or correct fraudulent information.

Other than that, I object vehemently to these types of datastores. Welcome to investing. Them's the risks.

I've worked in finance. Finance for its own sake is not high on my list of things to facilitate. I also prefer discriminatory people be required to appear discriminatory.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#264

Post by SyzygistSix »

jdhn wrote: post #2

I'm curious what the overall take will be on this. Normally, this action would be frowned upon if it was a private company, but I'm assuming that people may be more open to it being done by Treasury because it's "for the societal good".

There is a reason the government is not allowed to buy this kind of data from telcos. What makes buying it from a professional surveillance group any different?

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#265

Post by SyzygistSix »

pempem wrote: post #187
cma wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the government wanted to know who "deepthroat" was during Watergate: just buy the location data of the journalists and anyone nearby.

And then they are violently removed from the populous like the single journalist who reported on the Panama Papers https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/16/malta-car-bomb...

That journalist published a lot of articles that exposed a lot of powerful people long before the Panama Papers.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#266

Post by RNCTX »

JasonFruit wrote: post #261
RNCTX wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amendment doesn't say "secure from government" or "secure from law enforcement." It just says "secure." A person cannot sell themselves into slavery. Yet we allow the US government to endorse indentured servitude for immigrant labor, because corporations want indentured servitude. Nor can a US citizen sign away workplace safety rights, legally. Yet we allow US construction companies to rampantly hire off-the-book…

I think you're making the opposite argument from what you hope to. You start off suggesting that the fourth amendment might apply here, but then point out that in every analogous case you can think of , the court has declined to stand up for people wronged by government acting through corporations. What makes you think they would do differently here? More to the point, why do you want the judicial branch to exercise…

Let me clarify: I'm not suggesting that precedent and consistency demand one way or the other, I'm saying precedent and consistency only matter until it's a corporation with lots of political donations brought to bear, in which case precedent and consistency cease to matter.

Therefore, arguing precedent and consistency is relatively pointless. My point was an exercise in "anything goes, so make the law fit the argument." That's what Chevron would do.

In other words: What's the desired outcome? That corporations cannot wantonly create mass surveillance any more than the government can. So make the law fit the desired reality: extend the 4th amendment to say that privacy is a basic human right and people cannot contractually sign it away any more than they can contractually sign away themselves into forced labor. A clever judge could outlaw H1 visas in the same ruling and get 2 birds with 1 stone.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#267

Post by jkhdigital »

ukd1 wrote: post #192
nostromo wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you go: "Amendment IV: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

But, nothing is being searched or seized here; it seems like people gave up their personal data, ignored or didn't read a ToS, and companies are selling it - not being forced to give it up. I don't like it, but does it mean it's illegal?

The government purchasing this data is tantamount to a search. There's quite a bit of precedent on this, much of which was needed after telephones became ubiquitous. Just because the electrical signals carrying a private conversation pass through wires that are owned by a third party does not make the conversation public. Similarly, just because internet traffic is observable by anyone with a network tap does not mean that the government can passively collect this data "just in case". Purchasing the data from a third party does not magically absolve the government of its Constitutional duty to first obtain a warrant for the data.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#268

Post by gred »

ectopod wrote: post #138
gred wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anybody studied or quantified the evolution of "effective liberty" over time in the US? Say you buy groceries once per week. That activity might have triggered 1 governmental control touchpoint in 1800 (sales tax?), but in 2020 it might have triggered many more due to increased automation, logging and third-party delegation. All of this, of course, without fundamental changes to the Law of the Land -- simply beca…

Sales taxes weren't a thing then. Before the 20th century government played pretty much no part in the average person's life.

Wow, I didn't realize that. It does look like retail sales taxes were first introduced in the US during the 1930s.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#269

Post by dmead »

literallyaduck wrote: post #165

Don't like it? Organizations like the EFF have been working to stop overreach: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/01/eff-fincen-stop-pushin... You can help financially, and contact each of your representatives and senators and request they act to stop this end run around the constitution.

Is this over reach? Seems like it would be good for the treasury to go after tax dodgers and money launderers.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#270

Post by user3939382 »

literallyaduck wrote: post #165

Don't like it? Organizations like the EFF have been working to stop overreach: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/01/eff-fincen-stop-pushin... You can help financially, and contact each of your representatives and senators and request they act to stop this end run around the constitution.

I used to be a big EFF supporter until I learned they take millions in donations from the same organizations they’re supposed to be watching. Best case scenario it’s a massive conflict of interest, it’s a big problem for me that they find it to be ok.
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