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USC pushed a $115k online degree – graduates got low salaries, huge debts

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Re: USC pushed a $115k online degree – graduates got low salaries, huge debts

#211

Post by Jensson »

nsxwolf wrote: post #58

Seems like people have been warned about this stuff for over a decade now and we keep hearing about it. When will students stop taking the bait?

> When will students stop taking the bait?

They wont, new kids grow up every year and they hear mixed messages, some says college is a scam while others says it is the golden ticket. They have to make a decision, so lots trusts (or just hopes for) the golden ticket.

This will continue as long as colleges are allowed to market themselves as golden tickets.

Re: USC pushed a $115k online degree – graduates got low salaries, huge debts

#212

Post by tharkun__ »

BizarroLand wrote: post #156
jeffy90 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a shortage of software engineers and we need more students to enroll in STEM. When deciding between an expensive STEM degree or a free liberal arts degree, students are incentivized to chose the free degree in your proposed solution.

But as it stands right now, people are equally incentivized to take degrees for passion as they are for profit, possibly to their own detriment when one comes with misery from poverty and the other with misery from golden handcuffs. Not everyone is cut out for a STEM career. You can't turn cavemen into electrical engineers if the aptitude isn't there, right? It's not a big leap to say that some people will prioritize…

This might be a very unpopular opinion here. I'll mention it anyway.

Free tuition.

Germany has had zero tuition university for quite some time. And though they allowed charging tuition again a while ago, it was capped at something like 600EUR (?) per semester. Many universities apparently also went back to not charging tuition again.

It works well enough if you ask me. I got a great education with zero student debt. Was it Harvard? No. Was it a great education? Absolutely. Masters degree. I have a good job and of the people in my study group more than one is working at Tesla, Facebook and Google. More than one of them also have a PhD.

Re: USC pushed a $115k online degree – graduates got low salaries, huge debts

#213

Post by lumost »

yumraj wrote: post #196
brutal_chaos_ wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would this then force companies to pay according to what universities charge? How are those levels determined?

Those are determined by demand and supply. Why does a society want to produce experts in fields where there is no value. Note, many/most people in software engineering have other interests. But they have not made a career out if it. So, if humanities interests someone, it can be a perfectly good hobby for many, till demand and supply evens up that leads to rise in salaries.

“value” is ambiguous. Prices are set via supply and demand. In this case we see that students gravitate to certain manors more than others, and may not take into account future job demand. Many students may be following a lottery ticket model of buying the best education simply for a chance to participate in a particular job market.

If student preferences were different we could easily be bemoaning low value engineering majors, doctors or lawyers.

If student preferences are disconnected from long term utility then it's unlikely for University costs to normalize on utility. Increasing the costs for high utility majors would result in yet higher prices for those with the majors skills - decreasing prices for low utility majors will simply lower income potential in those majors.

Re: USC pushed a $115k online degree – graduates got low salaries, huge debts

#214

Post by aidenn0 »

jamestimmins wrote: post #150
aidenn0 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure that an MSW is required to be a social worker in my county; not sure if it's a statewide requirement in CA.

Licensed Clinical Social Workers in California have to get 3,200 hours of supervised work after graduation. This isn't "social worker" in the loose sense of someone in the community. These are health professionals who receive extensive training in mental and emotional conditions. Source: My wife is currently in school to be an LCSW, and her focus is treating adults with severe mental health issues.

Do people working for DSS/CWS with the job title "Social Worker" typically need to be a LCSW? I didn't think they did, and that's what I was talking about when I said "Social Worker."

Re: USC pushed a $115k online degree – graduates got low salaries, huge debts

#215

Post by jjeaff »

romwell wrote: post #172
david38 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, adults can make poor choices. Agreed. Said choices should be constrained though. She wouldn't be allowed to buy a 300k car with no possibility of bankruptcy. The lender is made of adults as well. They also made poor choices. Why is a group of adults hiding behind a piece of paper allowed to be saved from their poor choices while an individual not?

>Why is a group of adults hiding behind a piece of paper allowed to be saved from their poor choices while an individual not? Because rich people lending money to poor people needs to be a risk-free endeavor backed up by the state. This way, it's easier for the banks to make money. And at the same time, it's easy to spin predatory lending as "helping out" when it shouldn't exist to begin with, and victim-blame people…

I don't agree with that take. Without government backing, the alternative is that banks would not lend. Just like they don't currently lend to the poor and that market is instead filled by predatory loan sharks and payday lenders.

In other words, the purpose is not to help the banks, but to help people get the loans in the first place.

However, the unintended consequences are that the banks are incentivized to make way to many loans. Obviously, there need to be better limits placed on lending for education.

Re: USC pushed a $115k online degree – graduates got low salaries, huge debts

#216

Post by ldiracdelta »

jjeaff wrote: post #215
romwell wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why is a group of adults hiding behind a piece of paper allowed to be saved from their poor choices while an individual not? Because rich people lending money to poor people needs to be a risk-free endeavor backed up by the state. This way, it's easier for the banks to make money. And at the same time, it's easy to spin predatory lending as "helping out" when it shouldn't exist to begin with, and victim-blame people…

I don't agree with that take. Without government backing, the alternative is that banks would not lend. Just like they don't currently lend to the poor and that market is instead filled by predatory loan sharks and payday lenders. In other words, the purpose is not to help the banks, but to help people get the loans in the first place. However, the unintended consequences are that the banks are incentivized to make w…

If payday loans didn't exist, those using it would... wait for payday and defer their consumption by 1-2 weeks. Usurious loans aren't a solution and only enable foolish behavior.

Re: USC pushed a $115k online degree – graduates got low salaries, huge debts

#218

Post by s1artibartfast »

csee wrote: post #205
jamestimmins wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the fraud? I acknowledge the unethical behavior, but that's distinct from fraud.

It's a confidence game being played on 17 year old kids who don't know any better. I agree it's a grey area and the fraud label may not fit, but it's fairly close to the truth.

The Confidence Game that the US government is playing on 17 olds. It's not the universities that are giving people loans to walk into a casino.

Perhaps we shouldn't seize the assets of random voters who enacted these programs

Re: USC pushed a $115k online degree – graduates got low salaries, huge debts

#219

Post by rayiner »

We don’t talk enough about how universities are scamming young people and ruining their lives. Even the best universities operate these cash cow diploma mills. How do they get away with it? People are outraged at payday lenders or whatever. How many people do you know with a payday loan? How many with student debt and a worthless degree?

We’re socialized not to talk about it. But it seems like half the people in my law school said they were there because their undergrad degree was worthless. But they keep feeding the beast by suckering the next cohort.

Re: USC pushed a $115k online degree – graduates got low salaries, huge debts

#220

Post by rayiner »

david38 wrote: post #151
999900000999 wrote: post #106

Ehh eh. I went to a CSU for like 6k a year. If you want to be elitist and attend the most expensive school possible, you have to eventually pay for it. > Ms. Fowler, a 2018 graduate, enjoyed the program but owes $307,000 in total student-loan debt, including about $200,000 from the master’s degree. She said she earns $48,000 as a community mental-health therapist in Mount Pleasant, Iowa. This translates into paying 3…

Yes, adults can make poor choices. Agreed. Said choices should be constrained though. She wouldn't be allowed to buy a 300k car with no possibility of bankruptcy. The lender is made of adults as well. They also made poor choices. Why is a group of adults hiding behind a piece of paper allowed to be saved from their poor choices while an individual not?

The lender is probably the federal government. The make the political choice to make loans without asking about credit worthiness, because we mistakenly treat university education as the only path to upward mobility. The schools abuse that social status.
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