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The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

theintercept.com

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Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#111

Post by icelancer »

mywittyname wrote: post #60
nostromo wrote: post #8

We need a Supreme Court ruling or law that says if the government doesn’t have a warrant to collect your data, they also can’t buy it from third parties. We also need privacy protections so these companies wouldn’t exist in the first place.

We can't rely on SCOTUS to make this ruling for another 50+ years, so our best hope is to start with state legislators. The majority of law enforcement happens at a state level, and most state legislators aren't as hamstrung as the federal one is, so this is the easiest way to achieve the most impactful results. Also, POTUS is in charge of most federal law enforcement agencies. So it might be possible to handle this…

>> We can't rely on SCOTUS to make this ruling for another 50+ years

If that's a comment about the bureaucracy working slowly as hell, that is reasonable. If it's about the makeup of the court, I disagree.

Kavanaugh and especially Gorsuch are two you want on the court in this case.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#112

Post by mywittyname »

mmcdermott wrote: post #86
mywittyname wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't rely on SCOTUS to make this ruling for another 50+ years, so our best hope is to start with state legislators. The majority of law enforcement happens at a state level, and most state legislators aren't as hamstrung as the federal one is, so this is the easiest way to achieve the most impactful results. Also, POTUS is in charge of most federal law enforcement agencies. So it might be possible to handle this…

Feels like it would be more airtight to amend the Constitution. Why hope that precedence falls a certain way instead of removing any ambiguity from the law?

I don't necessarily believe a Constitutional amendment is necessary, since this would be a law limiting government reach, not extending it.

In all likelihood, the amendments text would look something like:

> Section 1: The fourth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby extended to include information or detail held, owned, or otherwise under the custody of those other than the accused.

> Section 2: The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Which then necessitates some accompanying legislation to further clarify. But I'm pretty confident we can get there through legislation alone.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#113

Post by duped »

mc32 wrote: post #81
mywittyname wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit scores are used as a proxy for Ideal Citizenship. It just so happens to have baked into it enough plausible deniability as to not run afoul of anti-discrimination laws. Turns out, a lot of "bad" actions result in missed bill payments.

In a semi anonymous society how else do you suppose one should determine the creditworthiness of someone? It used to be the merchant had to know you and you had to build up your credit with each merchant over time. Credit scoring made it easier for merchants and customers to issue and leverage we credit.

Maybe we shouldn't have mountains of consumer debt

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#114

Post by arcticfox »

boringg wrote: post #72
Sevastopol wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "the west" is effectively building their own version of China's social credit. China's social credit system allegedly assigns (or will assign?) all citizens scores and punishes them for social wrongdoings. The IRS has always been tasked with auditing and catching tax cheats, the Treasury always went after people who violate economic sanctions. What's the similarity other than data collection?

Agree with Sevastopol how is it even similar? I ask, honestly, if anyone else one here is seeing a large influx of intentionally skewing of what the US does and makes it comparable to some terrible policy that China does. It really feels like there are a lot of people with strong Chinese interests mudding the waters of debate by equating the US with China. Feels very much like the Russian disinformation campaigns as…

It would be silly for the Chinese not to be doing this. Extremely low cost [1], low risk, measurable effects, etc.

And the PRC is not a silly government - therefore my prior is very strong that it's taking place on a grand scale.

[1] a cruise missile is ~$2M...you could hire dozens of skilled astroturfers for a year for that, and you can't even use missiles against the US due to MAD...

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#115

Post by Iefthandrule »

mc32 wrote: post #31
tehjoker wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait until the US public finds out about the concept of a credit score (new in the 1980s).

Credit score for ghee most part tries to assure lenders you can repay your debts. Social credit score is about how close you hew to proscribed behavior at large.

Your credit score is run before you can buy a house or rent an apartment.

We are already there.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#116

Post by slongfield »

artificialLimbs wrote: post #89
aspenmayer wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Failure to navigate a capitalist system of hoop-jumping due to lack of funds causes a self-fulfilling prophesy of poor performance at said hoop-jumping and associated poor credit scores. Blaming the victim comes to mind.

If I only pay my bills on time does my credit score go up in the US? Asking because I don't know, but if that is the case, not sure why you can call it 'hoop jumping'. I don't care for the credit companies, they're total scum. But I'm not sure how to do anything better.

If they're credit bills, yes. If they're just phone, power, rent, etc, not unless you've specifically set them up to go to the credit reporting companies.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#117

Post by arcticfox »

FpUser wrote: post #100
boringg wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with Sevastopol how is it even similar? I ask, honestly, if anyone else one here is seeing a large influx of intentionally skewing of what the US does and makes it comparable to some terrible policy that China does. It really feels like there are a lot of people with strong Chinese interests mudding the waters of debate by equating the US with China. Feels very much like the Russian disinformation campaigns as…

>"It really feels like there are a lot of people with strong Chinese interests mudding the waters of debate by equating the US with China." What you say feels to me as Joseph McCarthy has just sprung back to life.

I feel like McCarthyism requires pointing fingers in particular directions with no evidence. Neither was done there

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#118

Post by trasz »

azekai wrote: post #64
wmf wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've read China's social credit system does not yet incorporate any non-financial information; that part is more aspirational.

That is the narrative the CCP pushes. 'It is just like a government run checking score.' But it isn't. Crimes, including political ones, will penalize your social credit score. If your score falls too low, you and your children will become ineligible for government programs and assistance.

[citation needed]

What you describe is something that is often said, but I'm yet to see any reliable sources; everything turns out to be editorials based on some plans that never got implemented.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#119

Post by FpUser »

arcticfox wrote: post #117
FpUser wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"It really feels like there are a lot of people with strong Chinese interests mudding the waters of debate by equating the US with China." What you say feels to me as Joseph McCarthy has just sprung back to life.

I feel like McCarthyism requires pointing fingers in particular directions with no evidence. Neither was done there

It is exactly what was done here: blaming people with having "strong Chinese interests" with no evidence.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#120

Post by passer_byer »

FpUser wrote: post #100
boringg wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with Sevastopol how is it even similar? I ask, honestly, if anyone else one here is seeing a large influx of intentionally skewing of what the US does and makes it comparable to some terrible policy that China does. It really feels like there are a lot of people with strong Chinese interests mudding the waters of debate by equating the US with China. Feels very much like the Russian disinformation campaigns as…

>"It really feels like there are a lot of people with strong Chinese interests mudding the waters of debate by equating the US with China." What you say feels to me as Joseph McCarthy has just sprung back to life.

> What you say feels to me as Joseph McCarthy has just sprung back to life.

No need to go that far back in the history of the U.S. Government spying on it's own citizens. In the late 1960's, the Nixon Administration used IRS data to spy on Vietnam war protesters, Dr. Martin Luther King, members of the Student's Non-Violent Coordination Committee, and other American citizens critical of the administration's foreign policy[1].

Human behavior being what it is means that eventually someone in the U.S. government will be tempted to use this data for nefarious purposes. Why should US citizens live in a survaillence state contrary to the Bill of Rights?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee

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