Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#141

Post by kelnos » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

zcw100 wrote: post #138

Much ado about nothing. Developer jobs have been able to be outsourced and work remote for a couple of decades. If it was going to go that way it would have long ago. The rest of the world might be catching up to the remote work game but software development has been there, done that. If anything we've already experienced a pullback where outsourced developer jobs have been pulled back when they experienced the probl…

Agreed. The "worst" I see happening is some US tech jobs will go to Canada, since the time zones are "compatible" and culture is similar. People from Central and South America will get in the game somewhat as well, but I still think cultural and language barriers cause enough problems that there's still a bit of a moat.

We've already been offshoring to Asia and Eastern Europe for decades now, and even though we should have a good handle on what does and doesn't work by now, I still see companies making the same mistakes, and either having to pull back, or just fail and be too blinded by hubris to figure out why.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#142

Post by allturtles » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

satyrnein wrote: post #95

flatiron wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The politicians will fight back with work visas and limits etc. protecting domestic work forces should be a primary concern for politicians.

Advancing the interests of all citizens, not just protecting the outsized benefits of one group, should be the primary concern for politicians. Think of how much boring process automation software could be written for so many businesses, if development were cheaper.

This was the logic used for outsourcing manufacturing. Now we American consumers can get as many low-quality plastic toys as we want at bargain basement prices and throw away perfectly functional electronic devices every few years in order to get newer, shiner ones. The cost was cutting a swath of destruction across hundreds of formerly vibrant towns across the middle of the country, which are now home mainly to hopelessness and drug addiction. I'm not sure the trade-off was worth it.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#143

Post by da39a3ee » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #124

0xy wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it okay to be paid $100,000 for the exact same job as your equivalent counterparts in the US make 3.5x for? That's millions if you save the majority for retirement. It could be the difference between nursing homes and an independent travel-filled retirement at a reasonable age. Of course, I'm not here to make decisions for anyone. And people have personal reasons to not pursue immigration, that's fine. They're…

Yes I would be totally ok with that. Especially if that $100k include a real pension when I retire that I can depend on, no threat of my kids getting shot at school, health insurance that covers me when I get sick without having to go into bankruptcy, bike paths over the entire country, paternity for when I have a kid, subsidized child care for everyone so parents can be more sane, etc etc... You think this is just a…

In US public tech companies it's standard for half or more of the compensation to be made up by equity grants. Are you sure your average salary figures are not just looking at salary? A salary of $177k would be normal for someone making annual total comp of $350k at a FAANG -- you can see this on levels.fyi.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#144

Post by oceanplexian » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

nly wrote: post #94

DeathArrow wrote: post #76

I see many people here comparing US with EU in term of wages. But for the comparation to work taxes, healthcare, education, and subsidizing several public services like transport or heating should be taken into account. Also, the comparation should take into consideration PPP. $300 000 pre-taxes in US is not 3x $100 000 after-taxes in EU. Especially if you adjust for other factors.

By my estimation, even factoring in the cost of living, medical insurance, tax differences etc, people working in the Bay area are taking home twice what an equally qualified dev would take home in say, London. If anything the contrast is even more stark across the EU

I think the "equally qualified" point you're making is highly disingenuous.

Qualified doesn't mean you can churn out so many lines of code or have X years of experience at a company or whatever, it means you have right kind of experience. To a big company like Facebook or Google, someone from SV who has a few years in the local industry has more relevant "experience" to the position than someone in London with 10 years at a financial firm.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#145

Post by siva7 » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 6:27 PM UTC

zcw100 wrote: post #138

Much ado about nothing. Developer jobs have been able to be outsourced and work remote for a couple of decades. If it was going to go that way it would have long ago. The rest of the world might be catching up to the remote work game but software development has been there, done that. If anything we've already experienced a pullback where outsourced developer jobs have been pulled back when they experienced the probl…

This. Especially with promotions and management jobs, those will be passed to the buddy's in the office and not that remote worker. I've seen that happen multiple times even though the remote worker was more skilled and experienced. Sure, there are exceptions but human nature won't change in that regard.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#146

Post by kelnos » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 6:28 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #132

brianmcc wrote: post #29

I am sceptical. Reminds me of the predictions 20 years ago that outsourcing/offshoring would eliminate hands-on developer jobs in US/UK and other "expensive" countries. Timezones, language factors, cultural factors, retention and exclusivity challenges plus basic logistics stuff like payroll and taxes all matter a lot. None of that's insurmountable but it takes a level of effort that can be very high. And I say this…

>> outsourcing/offshoring would eliminate hands-on developer jobs in US/UK and other "expensive" countries Remember companies like EDS? During the 80's and 90's all the development and support for the 'big' companies in the USA was done by companies like EDS. They employed hundreds of thousands of people. Then in 2000's they started going to India etc.

And yet there's still no shortage of developer jobs in the US.

In any case, did EDS succeed? I had forgotten about them until your mention. Just because they offshored to India, it doesn't mean it worked and their business is flourishing.

I think the model has changed, at any rate. Companies like EDS are mostly obsolete. Sure, professional/technical services companies are still around in the form of IBM and their ilk, but they're not even remotely the dominant way of doing things.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#147

Post by throwaway0a5e » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 6:29 PM UTC

brundolf wrote: post #129

zz865 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reminds me of the predictions 20 years ago that outsourcing/offshoring would eliminate hands-on developer jobs in US/UK and other "expensive" countries. Well in the corporate world offshoring really is everywhere. Even Goldman Sach's, #2 office for engineers in is Bangalore.

Large corps have an economy of scale with this stuff. The smaller the company, the bigger a barrier it is

Once you're big enough to have incurred the extra overhead of having satellite offices in very different timezones adding more of them doesn't really add much more overhead.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#148

Post by mrguyorama » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 6:31 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #120

nly wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By my estimation, even factoring in the cost of living, medical insurance, tax differences etc, people working in the Bay area are taking home twice what an equally qualified dev would take home in say, London. If anything the contrast is even more stark across the EU

They also seem to work very long hours with long commutes and get few vacations. When I see that the average cost of a house in Cupertino is 2.5 million dollars for example, I would imagine most of those Apple engineers live far away.

Never forget that "Free Dinner" is a big "perk" of work in FAANG land. I can't comprehend the messed up work life balance that makes that make sense

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#149

Post by Uptrenda » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 6:32 PM UTC

I feel like when it comes to remote work the great divider will be 'cost of living' versus attained wages (and not 'talent.') As in: suppose I live in India where the cost of living is low. Due to wage arbitrage I can satisfy my cost of living quite easily by taking on low skilled software contracts. In this position, I am happy to take on the work because it more than covers my basic needs. On the other hand, if I want to take on more skilled work I'll have to specialize.

Specialization means spending even more time to learn skills at the expense of earning money. So it costs money to specialise. And in poorer countries where the population is high, the competition for jobs will be high, and the less money there will be left over to invest in specialization. So by virtue of being born in a poorer country one is less well-off when it comes to specialization.

The West won't be at risk of 'losing' jobs to remote work because we're not competing for the same jobs. Specialization will set the bar for hiring as it always has done, and the same scarce pool of talent will have to be used to fill these jobs. There will be a greater number of choices for specialized engineers to fill-- and it will mean more local jobs get filled by a more diverse pool of candidates. Looking at just local jobs would seem to imply that we're worse off, but not when you compare the number of new jobs that will be open to qualified engineers as a whole.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#150

Post by dboreham » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 6:33 PM UTC

Sohakes wrote: post #139

It's happening on Brazil I think. It's very hard to hire for brazilian companies since people can earn an extraordinary salary by working remote. Our timezone is also pretty close to the US east coast, and still not that far from SV.

Also Argentina. I've worked with several very talented developers remote from Argentina. UTC-3.