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The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down

nytimes.com

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Re: The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down

#351

Post by xenocyon »

gorgoiler wrote: post #344

A major problem with electric pushbikes is that they are fast . A few days ago I was pulling out of a side road. I was turning to go into town such that I had to first cross a lane of traffic going out of town. I checked the crossing lane — nothing except for a guy in work clothes, no helmet, on a push bike. I checked the other direction and it was clear. I looked back towards town and got ready to start moving and……

The ebikes I am familiar with have a governor such that the power assist turns off entirely above 20 mph.

Re: The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down

#352

Post by topkai22 »

quadrangle wrote: post #204
DantesKite wrote: post #172

Bikes are too dangerous. Read too many stories about people breaking their face. Not a fan. But if they change the way cities are designed, it can perhaps be a bit more safe.

Bikes are not that dangerous, they are less dangerous than cars. So, yes, the danger is infrastructure that puts bikes next to cars instead of giving bikes their own space.

A cursory look at the data says that bikes are more dangerous than cars in the current environment. The US Bureau of Transportation Statistics says that in 2017 806/37473 fatalities were cyclists, or 2.2%, but the NHTSA data indicates that only 1% trips are by bicycle. That is a worse percentage than pedestrians (16.2 % of fatalities but 10.5% of trips) but substantially better than motorcycles (13.9% of fatalities but only 0.2% of trips!)

I think you are trying to say these statistics would change if we created an entirely separate set of infrastructure for cyclists, but that is not the world we live in currently and can't be realized quickly in any sane and humane scenario.

Ed- I'm a big electric bike fan, but we have to work within the world we live in, not the world we'd like to see. Right now using a bike or an e-bike for most tasks is more dangerous to the user than using an automobile. Doesn't mean we shouldn't use them or encourage them (after all they in the same ballpark as walking), but there is a lot of work to do to make them "safer" than cars. BTW- I don't think this was always the case- there were 5x as many fatalities per mile traveled in automobile in the 1960s then there are today, primarily due to the addition of vehicle safety features. I wonder what sort of active and passive safety features could be incorporated into cycles now?

(1) https://www.bts.gov/content/transportation-fatalities-mode (2) https://nhts.ornl.gov/person-trips

Re: The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down

#353

Post by BackBlast »

danny_codes wrote: post #241
BackBlast wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's... complicated... I rode a bike to school when my limited money would buy a very bad car or a nice bike. So I opted for the bike and had to ride it because that's all I had. I did that for a couple of years - even in the cold and ice. My commute distance varied in my biking days, from 6 to 20 miles. I always obeyed all the traffic laws, though occasionally in the early AM I'd find lights that would not turn gree…

In regards to bike-rider behavior on roads, of course cyclists appear "misbehaved" on roads. The roads are not designed for cyclists, so we have to fight with the design of the transport network to get anywhere Car-oriented transport infrastructure has been a terrible mistake. Don't blame the cyclists for trying to salvage something from the wreckage.

There is no significant tax pool coming from cyclists to build or maintain said infrastructure.

I don't blame them for trying to salvage/use something from what exists, I've been there. I found the behavior of ignoring established traffic law as if it were optional to be dangerous and selfish.

Re: The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down

#354

Post by TulliusCicero »

asdff wrote: post #221
TulliusCicero wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think the idea is that while it would be difficult to work on an EV motor yourself, it's also much less necessary, as electric motors are much simpler, with far fewer moving parts. I don't know if we have enough data yet to evaluate, but EV's should be much lower maintenance in that regard. Outside of the powertrain, seems like the rest of the car should be similar though, like tires and brakes, right?

It will be similar but who knows if you could do stuff like change rotting suspension bushings, change cabin air filters, replace rusting brake lines with third party parts or if Tesla will sell you these parts themselves directly (I'd expect not). I looked up how you change the headlight bulb on a tesla and it apparently involves removing the front wheel. Most other cars that's a thirty second job.

For Tesla that doesn't surprise me, but they're unusual in many respects. I'd be more surprised if what you're suggesting became true for EV's in general.

Re: The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down

#355

Post by TulliusCicero »

jodrellblank wrote: post #299
TulliusCicero wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a pedestrian around cyclists is dangerous, but not as dangerous as being a cyclist around cars. So I find it hard to fault cyclists who go onto the sidewalk.

In the UK it's illegal to bike on the pavement. [1] says " Rule 64. You MUST NOT cycle on a pavement. Laws HA 1835 sect 72 & R(S)A sect 129 " (exception: combined bike lanes and pavement, if the cyclist stays in the bike section). Saying "the way things are is dangerous for me, so I'm going to break the law and be a danger to others instead because I'm what matters here" is not ok behaviour. If cycling is too dangero…

Insisting that people risk their lives because "the law says you have to put yourself in mortal danger, therefore you're morally obliged to comply" is blind obedience of the dumbest degree.

Re: The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down

#356

Post by TulliusCicero »

jodrellblank wrote: post #343
TulliusCicero wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does reduce the total danger. Cyclists are killed by cars all the time, whereas pedestrians dying to bikes is extraordinarily rare. In Germany, protected bike lanes are mostly extensions of the sidewalk, and while it's not ideal, it still works pretty well.

> " Cyclists are killed by cars all the time, whereas pedestrians dying to bikes is extraordinarily rare. " Evidence I can find suggests that's not entirely true. While pedestrians dying to bikes is extraordinarily rare, police reports of crashes in the UK in 2019 involving a (pedal cycle, pedestrian) pair happened 375 times and killed 4 pedestrians (~1%). Crashes involving a (car, bike) pair happened 13,336 times ki…

This ignores the fact that bikes are so much less dangerous than cars that most crashes that involve a bike but not a car will not be reported. Your average time a cyclist runs into a pedestrian will be only an annoyance.

Also, note that super bike-friendly Netherlands has 1/10th the pedestrian fatalities with 1/4th the population of the UK. If bikes are that dangerous, why would such a bike-focused country have radically fewer pedestrian fatalities?

From what I've seen, the data is pretty consistent, in that more car-focused countries tend to have more pedestrian fatalities.

Re: The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down

#357

Post by TulliusCicero »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #311
TulliusCicero wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the surburb, I've definitely seen many where walking distance wouldn't work very well, there just flat out aren't that many people. You'll have a subdevelopment where there's 50-100 houses or whatever, and it's connected to a highway and otherwise surrounded by a bunch of green space. That's not enough people to support more than a kiosk's worth of retail, probably.

I mean, that's really a self-reinforcing cycle. Car culture leads to car-centric development leads to car-dependent suburbs leads to more need for car infrastructure. Nothing said those suburbs had to be built that way, except that's what people expect (and whatever local zoning ordinances ear-marked the land for single-family homes).

Agreed. But nevertheless, those types of suburbs will be harder to convert to a more walkable or bike-friendly format.

But yes, many others would be fairly straightforward, the only blocking issue is political will. "A bakery on my street corner makes me scared for my neighborhood character" is a surprisingly common sentiment in the states. People don't want any kind of retail whatsoever.

Re: The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down

#358

Post by gorgoiler »

xenocyon wrote: post #351
gorgoiler wrote: post #344

A major problem with electric pushbikes is that they are fast . A few days ago I was pulling out of a side road. I was turning to go into town such that I had to first cross a lane of traffic going out of town. I checked the crossing lane — nothing except for a guy in work clothes, no helmet, on a push bike. I checked the other direction and it was clear. I looked back towards town and got ready to start moving and……

The ebikes I am familiar with have a governor such that the power assist turns off entirely above 20 mph.

I’m fine with fast bikes as long as you signal “IAMA fast bike”.

Overalls on a sit-up-and-beg do not do this effectively :)

Re: The popularity of e-bikes isn’t slowing down

#359

Post by fy20 »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #319
mulmen wrote: post #246

I like that e-bikes are getting more people on two-wheeled transportation. I dislike that people are effectively riding motorcycles on dedicated bike paths. I especially dislike that companies get to profit from cluttering public spaces with bicycle and scooter litter. My hope is that long-term we get the e-bikes into the street where they belong and combine that with traffic calming measures to make scooter commutin…

I don't think children, or anybody without a drivers license should be allowed to ride on the road at all.

I'm not sure I agree to an outright ban, but some sort of required training before using electrical vehicles (in general, not just on roads) would be a good idea. As others say these are effectively low power motorcycles, not bicycles.

Last week in my city an electric scooter pulled out of a junction - where the light was red - in front of a bus. The bus performed an emergency stop, causing minor injuries that required hospitalization to a number of people onboard. The scooter just continued without stopping. Police are trying to track down the driver, but it seems pretty much impossible (it was privately owned, not rented from an app).

I've also seen countless accidents from people driving at 25km/h across pedestrian crossings, and the car not seeing them before it's too late. Here you are supposed to dismount from vehicles and walk across, but most people do not.

Near my office there is a junction where you can turn left - crossing a lane coming in the other direction - and go up a hill, at the same time the light is green for pedestrians to cross, and cars are supposed to give way. If a scooter is coming along the pavement at full speed, in the same direction as you are travelling before you turned, there is no way you will see it until it's right in front of you and it's too late to stop.

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