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Don’t do interviews, do discussions

thinkingthrough.substack.com

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Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#131

Post by rolleiflex »

LASR wrote: post #98
foobiekr wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my experience as well. I no longer interview for things, I interview people who want to hire me. At this point in my career, as an engineering IC, my initial conversations are with the VP/GMs of business units. Younger me would have been very surprised how much i actually enjoy these conversations with manager types. In my experience, _most_ of the VP GM and CEO types are much broader and more interesting tha…

Above a certain level of expertise, ICs are far harder to hire than management-like positions. This is definitely surprising to younger ICs in the industry - who seem to want to become engineering managers any way they can. The ceiling of genius you can possibly spike to as an engineer is far higher. I’ve seen single engineers at smaller startups perform the work of entire teams at big companies. And these folks get…

LASR, you seem to be shadowbanned, but your history doesn’t show anything weird. I vouched for this post to make it visible to everyone, but I don’t know if vouching lifts the shadowban entirely or just makes visible this particular post. You might want to reach out to dang just in case to figure this out.

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#132

Post by [deleted] »

xyzelement wrote: post #96
jen20 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> culture-centric companies (which are the good ones) This depends on what you are looking for.

> This depends on what you are looking for. I am open to learning other sides here because this is so foreign to me. What are the cases where you don't want to work in a place where people care about the mission and culture and want coworkers who do as well? What are the cases where you're happy working for the company whose attitude is "we don't care who you are and what you value, as long as you have the basic skil…

[deleted]

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#133

Post by wpietri »

xyzelement wrote: post #96
jen20 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> culture-centric companies (which are the good ones) This depends on what you are looking for.

> This depends on what you are looking for. I am open to learning other sides here because this is so foreign to me. What are the cases where you don't want to work in a place where people care about the mission and culture and want coworkers who do as well? What are the cases where you're happy working for the company whose attitude is "we don't care who you are and what you value, as long as you have the basic skil…

I'm a very mission-oriented person, so I understand where you're coming from. But there are a lot of places where people don't care very much, and people who work in those circumstances long enough tend to pick up those values.

The most obviously mercenary industry is finance. I did that for a few years and then got the fuck out. But I've met plenty of mercenary people in tech, especially in startups and BigCos. For plenty of people programming is a job like any other; they're going to come in, do whatever the boss wants (however little sense it makes), and go home. I would die from that, but a lot of people either find their meaning elsewhere or just don't care much about meaning.

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#134

Post by civilized »

xyzelement wrote: post #74
CalRobert wrote: post #26

I've finally reached a point in my career where I have a great paying job and like it well enough, and really don't give a shit what interviewers think. Paradoxically, I think I interview a lot better. I can steer conversation towards stuff I care about, and if they insist on being annoying, just thank them for their time and leave. Though this might just be a result of being pickier about who I interview with. If no…

>> "honestly I'm really happy where I am, but every man has his price, what can you offer?" does wonders. I would be very surprised if you say literally this and get results. No self-respecting company or manager is going to invest in talking to you if you describe yourself so overtly mercenary. Obviously, when you're happy where you are, money is part of the equation to get you to move, but making it seem like the o…

If you're afraid of telling a company you'd move for more money, you've subordinated yourself and abdicated your own economic agency before negotiations even begin.

I tell every recruiter my price right off the bat and get plenty of interview offers. Unconditional devotion is reserved for my wife, who actually deserves it.

I wouldn't respect a company that expects me to stick around at below-market pay for "the culture". Tech companies already appropriate your labor on the cheap and keep the (enormous) difference. No culture makes up for that. They should at least pay market rate. I'm not a dupe.

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#135

Post by wpietri »

xyzelement wrote: post #77
marcodave wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If nothing else, it's _amazing_ for negotiating. "honestly I'm really happy where I am, but every man has his price, what can you offer?" does wonders My cynical self is thinking whether this is (one of) the reason why young people are preferred in our industry. Young = Less experience in negotiating = lower wage

>> My cynical self is thinking ... >> Young = Less experience in negotiating = lower wage Your compensation formula is completely void of the value someone can bring to the table. Young = less experienced, period. In negotiation, sure, but also in the on-the-job skills/experience/maturity. So of course they make less. If you're a kid out of college competing with thousands of equally green kids, what would be your ne…

I think you're right, but I think it's also true that plenty of companies either can't spot value or don't really care.

It's important to remember that a lot of execs get measured not by results, but by the resources they control. I've done contract work on projects that I could have built for 10% of the total budget. But nobody cared, because actual results were like the 4th priority, with the top three being 1) make the blowhard in charge look good, 2) make the project look big and important, and 3) provide a dramatic finish with 80-hour-weeks so said blowhard could look like he was managing very hard.

So it's no surprise that plenty of companies want cheap bodies more than they want the value of experience. And that's before we even get to the companies whose whole business model is based on hiring a lot of newbs and renting them out as highly competent bright sparks (coughaccenturecough).

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#136

Post by annexrichmond »

CalRobert wrote: post #26

I've finally reached a point in my career where I have a great paying job and like it well enough, and really don't give a shit what interviewers think. Paradoxically, I think I interview a lot better. I can steer conversation towards stuff I care about, and if they insist on being annoying, just thank them for their time and leave. Though this might just be a result of being pickier about who I interview with. If no…

Yeah it's a much better mindset to be in to interview when you aren't desperate to leave. At my last job which I was decently happy and comfortable I still interviewed once a year just to see what was out there.

Though I was often asked "So why are you leaving?". Who said I was leaving?

But interviewing every now and then has other benefits:

- it has actually helped me become better at interviewing candidates

- a competing offer helped me get a better salary at a job I liked, so I didn't have to leave

- it kept my interview skills sharp for the next time I decided to interview

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#137

Post by swman »

dtoms wrote: post #113
01100011 wrote: post #30

Depends on the role and the candidate. If I'm hiring for a lower skill position and the candidate has a strong resume I just might want to verify the resume and confirm they have a basic grasp of the relevant skills. If I'm hiring for a high-output FANG job, you bet your ass we're going to the whiteboard. Sure, I hate it too(on either side of the table), but it's not too much to ask to prove that you can think on you…

so there is no glue code at FAANG? Or you have overqualified folks doing, and getting bored, and jumping ship between FAANG every 1.5 years...

It’s perfect code with 105% test coverage and there are amazing meetings and everyone is as smart as they think they are.

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#138

Post by FinanceAnon »

geoduck14 wrote: post #91
CalRobert wrote: post #26

I've finally reached a point in my career where I have a great paying job and like it well enough, and really don't give a shit what interviewers think. Paradoxically, I think I interview a lot better. I can steer conversation towards stuff I care about, and if they insist on being annoying, just thank them for their time and leave. Though this might just be a result of being pickier about who I interview with. If no…

>I've finally reached a point in my career where I have a great paying job and like it well enough, and really don't give a shit what interviewers think. I've interviewed people who have resched this point. It makes for a chill interview. In some cases, the interviewee is overly "chill" and is bored with the challenges described in the job. I prefer to hire people who are EXCITED about the challenges they will face i…

I don't really understand why software engineers need to be EXCITED about their profession. I don't think the same would be expected from a lawyer or a doctor.

I also think that excitement =/= passion. For example, if you look at the top chess player - Magnus Carlsen - he always looks bored talking about chess, and yet that's what he does all the time and is the best at it.

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#139

Post by neeleshs »

01100011 wrote: post #75
neeleshs wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly curious to know. Can you say more about what your current work entails?

HPC programming library. It has to be fast, correct, secure and has strong compatibility guarantees so design decisions can have never ending repercussions. Previous to this job I laughed at the goofy CS questions asked in interviews. "I've been doing this 30 years and never needed A* or a graph algorithm." I have to retract that statement now. Not that the modern coding interview isn't a little overdone, but there i…

Thank you! That is a very interesting world indeed.

But, just focusing on the algorithms part of it, I never could answer how exactly a specific algorithm worked, but I've had to use many algorithms in my "normal" job. I just know "oh this needs a modified DFS, or A*, with custom heuristics, or a priority based permutations generator". I cannot answer how any of this works in detail on the fly, but I know where to look. Isn't that sufficient? I certainly would fail a FANG interview, but have gone toe to toe or even better when pow-wowing on some real problems with googlers. Wouldn't consider myself any inferior because I don't know how a specific algorithm works in the interview. Just my two cents

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#140

Post by wpietri »

arketyp wrote: post #11

I've been involved in interviews for new hires a couple of years now. I'm pretty sure I could have the interviewee talk about cucumbers for 10 minutes and I could determine if its a good hire or not. It's all about getting insight about how the person thinks.

I'm sure you believe that, but I'd bet you don't have data. That's a fantastic way to introduce unconscious bias into the process.
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