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Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

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Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#171

Post by TomSwirly »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #124
ninepoints wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The explanation is simply that there are people that have bought in that want others to buy in also so they can liquidate for a profit. Meanwhile, others are susceptible to what amounts to FOMO-driven investment. The same sentiment that drove the beanie-baby craze, the dot-com boom, the subprime mortgage crisis, the current metaverse craze, and so on. Nothing new under the sun.

>there are people that have bought in that want others to buy in also so they can liquidate for a profit. Is that any different than a ponzi/pyramid scheme?

Consider this.

Crypo cannot create or destroy fiat currency. So if you sell your crypto and make a profit in dollars, it's exactly because someone else bought it at a higher price than you did.

And they expect someone else will buy it from them, in just the same way...

So every dollar that comes out of cryptocurrency is because a later investor put a dollar in.

Doesn't that sound like the definition of a Ponzi scheme?

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#172

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

dcanelhas wrote: post #129
Ekaros wrote: post #28

As person living in country with ties to Scandinavian grid. I see this as very positive. I could argue that current market price situation could even be worse if crypto miners were allowed to externalize their energy cost to rest of society. That is by applying high demand the hydro would have less stored capacity available. Which kinda is currently part of the price problem. They lower the stored capacity and pay ch…

Good point, the Danish wind power is partly made viable due to interconnection with the swedish grid and its hydro power, which can generate on demand to even out the production. We sometimes see the spot price go negative when there is an excess of wind. In those cases the optimal routing of energy is essentially going through as much wire as possible, to incur transmission losses. I don't think the excess energy sh…

> due to interconnection with the swedish grid and its hydro power

... and its hydro and nuclear power.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#173

Post by TomSwirly »

swalsh wrote: post #133
swman wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly do we really need cryptocurrency? I don’t want my transactions public. I like exchanging cash for weed (legal in California) and nobody needs to know regardless. I also don’t understand what’s wrong with USD. I grew up in a third world country so maybe it could help people there but in USA? I’m happy with the dollar fluctuations vs four digit fluctuations daily. Can someone give me a good explain?

Not all crypto is money. ETH for example (which will soon be proof of stake... and more energy efficient) could be considered more accurately as a really large (but relatively slow) computer that never turns off. This plus infrastructure like ipfs enables a brand new internet. Completely decentralized and free of the strangle hold of large tech companies. To me, money and profit is less important than freedom. Web 3.…

It's funny and sad that when people talk about their "freedom" in 2021, it's almost always some sort of madness: freedom not to get vaccinated; freedom not to wear a mask; freedom to use cryptocurrencies.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#174

Post by Ekaros »

roenxi wrote: post #10

The basic idea of the economy is people can earn the right to energy, and then direct it to a goal of their choosing. The government making a value judgement about what type of commercial activity is worthwhile is extremely risky. Countries with innovative financial and credit systems have historically steamrolled those that don't have such innovations. We still don't understand the nature of crypto.

Good questions to ask is does Sweden need crypto? Does it overall benefit the society than some other type of industry? I would probably argue that it is not very beneficial. Some profits are extracted, but in general economic activity ends pretty much there. Rent a warehouse have one or two people monitor and maintain it.

And it is not like Sweden doesn't already have entirely reasonable financial, payment and banking sector.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#175

Post by ur-whale »

timwaagh wrote: post #110

Although I'm pretty conservative regarding climate change, it's a real problem that needs adressing so the Swedish government has a legitimate reason to intervene. Maybe we can indeed travel more if we ban crypto. But more importantly I think crypto is the most wasteful, pointless and potentially dangerous development that happened this century and I fully appreciate any government wanting to ban it for literally any…

> But more importantly I think crypto is the most wasteful, pointless and potentially dangerous development that happened this century

How did you manage to miss the atomic bomb?

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#176

Post by capableweb »

Jensson wrote: post #43
capableweb wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extra specifically: Proof of Work cryptocurrency mining. > Our conclusion is that policy measures are required to address the harms caused by the proof of work mining method. It is important that both Sweden and the EU can use our renewable energy where it provides the greatest benefit for society as a whole.

Energy-intensive crypto mining is accurate enough, proof of stake isn't energy intensive.

Judging by the comments here in this submission and overall on HN, not everyone is aware that different cryptocurrencies have different strategies for consensus.

For example, I've seen calls to action from a lot of HNers to ban all cryptocurrencies because they are destroying the environment, missing completely that PoS even exists and has nowhere near the impact on energy usage as PoW.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#177

Post by Jensson »

readflaggedcomm wrote: post #149
Jensson wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People decide that democratically. This is just like how California bans all showerheads that gives you more than a trickle of water, since they see good showers as a waste of water (All of USA has a similar ban but less restrictive). Just that in Sweden they ban wasteful businesses rather than "wasteful" quality of life improvements.

California bans the sale, not the use. Discrimination of how we use power is like discrimination of how we use internet service. What happened to power network neutrality?

Well every time I visit California the showers are horrible in the hotels, so I bet hotels has to have those shitty showerheads. It would work the same here, you ban crypto mining for businesses but people will still mine privately since you can't really ban that.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#178

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

TomSwirly wrote: post #171
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there are people that have bought in that want others to buy in also so they can liquidate for a profit. Is that any different than a ponzi/pyramid scheme?

Consider this. Crypo cannot create or destroy fiat currency. So if you sell your crypto and make a profit in dollars, it's exactly because someone else bought it at a higher price than you did. And they expect someone else will buy it from them, in just the same way... So every dollar that comes out of cryptocurrency is because a later investor put a dollar in. Doesn't that sound like the definition of a Ponzi scheme…

That means the ones at the bottom, whenever that bottom is gonna be reached, will be left holding the bags for those who got in and got out early.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#179

Post by eurasiantiger »

opaov wrote: post #126
seu wrote: post #3

"If we were to allow extensive mining of crypto-assets in Sweden, there is a risk that the renewable energy available to us will be insufficient to cover the required climate transition that we need to make. This energy is urgently required for the development of fossil-free steel, large-scale battery manufacturing and the electrification of our transport sector. Based on estimates from Cambridge University, it is cu…

Meanwhile the bitcoin marketing mega machine is going into over drive. Full/Front page ads in newspapers, targeted campaigns on the most misguided, propping up talking heads and influencers, 24*7 sms bombardment in countries all over the world offering free coins, games and wallets to rope in more and more people who have clue about anything. Show growth. Get funds to buy more marketing, target the most ignorant, pro…

Everything is a scam nowadays, from tap water to US presidency. It’s almost if the rich people stopped caring about morals and just started setting up traps to entertain themselves with the suffering of others.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#180

Post by quasisphere »

agilob wrote: post #67
VMG wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nonsensical. If you want to tax carbon, tax it regardless what it is used for. What you are describing penalizes somebody who uses clean energy for mining and ignores somebody who uses coal power for running his bot farm.

>If you want to tax carbon, tax it regardless what it is used for. And this will happen, we will pay carbon tax for meat, electricity and electronics. I would like to get a tax discount for planting trees too, but we know that's now how governments work.

I think what could be worth exploring is progressive energy taxing. Basically let each individual consume a certain amount which is needed for living a normal life, but tax energy usage exceeding that increasingly heavily.

On top of this base model one could then also introduce subsidies for specific energy intensive industries that are deemed essential (probably not bitcoin).

That would handle the distribution of limited* amount of energy we have. CO2 emissions should probably be taxed separately and progressive rates would seem reasonable to me here as well.

* Yes, we can still build more, but at some point the energy usage has to stagnate. Exponential growth in usage would lead the Earth to become very hot in a few hundred years since the only way heat gets released to space is via infrared radiation which is limited by the surface area of the planet [1, Section 1.3].

[1] Murphy, T.: Energy and Human Ambitions on a Finite Planet (2021), a free textbook at https://doi.org/10.21221/S2978-0-578-86717-5

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