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Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

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Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#161

Post by VMG »

morelisp wrote: post #147
Fragoel2 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, physical cash is still the norm in most of the world. Second, higher competition in the payments ecosystem would force providers to reduce their fees. The glaring example is what is happening in San Salvador, where by using Bitcoin they are likekly to save 450 USD millions/year in fees.

> by using Bitcoin they are likekly to save 450 USD millions/year in fees. More like shift 450mm/year into the pockets of the people running Chivo while creating a media circus to distract from the president's takeover of the judiciary. Freedom!

This is incorrect. The transaction costs are very low and you are free to choose whatever wallet you want.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#162

Post by supermatt »

lordnacho wrote: post #127
seu wrote: post #3

"If we were to allow extensive mining of crypto-assets in Sweden, there is a risk that the renewable energy available to us will be insufficient to cover the required climate transition that we need to make. This energy is urgently required for the development of fossil-free steel, large-scale battery manufacturing and the electrification of our transport sector. Based on estimates from Cambridge University, it is cu…

The thing is it doesn't matter whether there are a few miners or a lot. Bitcoin will continue to mine a block every 10 minutes. It's like an energy sink, you can drip in tiny amounts and get the same, or you can pour in all future fusion power plants, you get the same. So actually it won't affect bitcoin, but it will release the energy to other uses.

> whether there are a few miners or a lot. Bitcoin will continue to mine a block every 10 minutes

Thats not exactly true. Every 2016 blocks the network compares the actual blocks mined with the target blocks (at 10 mins per block), and adjusts the difficulty accordingly.

If you suddenly had less miners the current difficulty would mean that the time to mine a block would be greater than 10 mins. Depending on where it is in the 2016 block cycle it could also mean an extended period of time before the difficulty is rectified.

If the network suddenly dropped to a VERY low hashrate (like a single PC), it is possible it would take (at current difficulty) tens of millions of years to mine a single block - let alone 2016 of them. Of course, thats probably not going to happen, im just using it as an example to show that its not a fixed period of time per block.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#163

Post by VMG »

labster wrote: post #87
DeusExMachina wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How you define waste of electricity? You writing that comment might as well be declared a waste and prohibited.

This shitty comment uses a kilojoule max. A single BTC transaction uses 1880 kWh. https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

this calculation ignores layer-2 transactions which are just a few TCP packets

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#164

Post by meeriee »

peakaboo wrote: post #40
seu wrote: post #3

"If we were to allow extensive mining of crypto-assets in Sweden, there is a risk that the renewable energy available to us will be insufficient to cover the required climate transition that we need to make. This energy is urgently required for the development of fossil-free steel, large-scale battery manufacturing and the electrification of our transport sector. Based on estimates from Cambridge University, it is cu…

I feel like you guys are completely inside the matrix here so allow me to explain... Bitcoin is being fought by banks and governments because it threatens the dollar and the banking system. The future they want is a global coin, not a decentralized currency.

> Bitcoin is being fought by banks and governments because it threatens the dollar and the banking system.

What's wrong with the dollar? Just because something is centralized doesn't mean it's bad.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#165

Post by skohan »

kitkat_new wrote: post #151
skohan wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is until it isn't right? Do you think there's a fundamental problem there, or is it just taking too long?

taking too long is a fundamental problem here

Some problems are complex. If you asked me in 2012 if fuel cell cars would ever exist I would have called it a pipe-dream, but now you can buy one and use it as a real vehicle in California.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#166

Post by VMG »

swarnie wrote: post #112
themihai wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto doesn't try to replace cash. It tries to replace digital payments (i.e. bank transfer, paypal, credit card etc) and I'm totally fine with that. Some people like paypal, visa and mastercard, some people don't.

Do digital payments need replacing? I haven't seen physical cash in almost two years (one exception, a contractor wanted to dodge some tax) and the system just works effortlessly. Tapping a card is easier and faster then counting change. I don't see how paying a $20 gas fee and waiting 15 minutes would improve the situation.

This is because you don't live in a sanctioned country and you have a good social credit score.

This is like saying "why do I need encryption, I don't have anything to hide".

Many people do not have this privilege.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#167

Post by sk0g »

VMG wrote: post #137
devoutsalsa wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then let’s ban this waste of electricity everywhere. I’m all for the idea of crypto currency, but I’m not in support or baking the planet just so a few people can get some virtual goods.

Isn't it interesting that it is never a "waste" if it is the Pentagon that is polluting and poisoning the world. But if there is a technology that threatens government power, suddenly it's suddenly all about the Earth. For many people, Bitcoin is the only reliable technology to prevent their savings to be destroyed by inflation and to evade cruel sanctions. Your opinion has no value to them.

The first point is classic whataboutism. Would you defend a murder court case by claiming people don't care when the police kill people? It's the same thing, but people being replaced by the planet.

Second point - who are these people, and how much of BTC usage comes from that, vs greedy 'investors'/'evangelists' who have bought in, and get rich by other people buying in?

It's a rich people's plaything. Poor people in third world countries own very little of it, because they are poor. Bitcoin, and crypto as a whole, is a solution in search of a problem. It can be hammered into lots of use cases, but most are solved more quickly and efficiently by a backend and a database.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#168

Post by TomSwirly »

throw298340 wrote: post #154
lordnacho wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is it doesn't matter whether there are a few miners or a lot. Bitcoin will continue to mine a block every 10 minutes. It's like an energy sink, you can drip in tiny amounts and get the same, or you can pour in all future fusion power plants, you get the same. So actually it won't affect bitcoin, but it will release the energy to other uses.

This is just wrong. The hashrate is proportional to the network security, eg 51% attack. The sentiment on HN against crypto strikes me as odd… it’s like saying cars are the devils tool in the 1900s … Give it some time to evolve and embrace the future!

The very first time I saw email, I immediately knew I wanted to have it. Ditto with the web. Ditto with video conferencing.

I've known about crypto for almost ten years. I worked in the field writing bits of the rippled code for a couple of years. And I still have no idea why anyone would want to use cryptocurrencies, except of course for crime.

> it’s like saying cars are the devils tool in the 1900s …

Hmm, is this comment intended to be a parody? Well, it certainly turned out that the car was the Devil's tool, because we are running as fast as we can to devastate our climate by turning fossil fuels into carbon dioxide.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#169

Post by sk0g »

casi18 wrote: post #148
devoutsalsa wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then let’s ban this waste of electricity everywhere. I’m all for the idea of crypto currency, but I’m not in support or baking the planet just so a few people can get some virtual goods.

we should ban videogames, they use more energy than ethereum network (u.s. video game industry uses more energy than small countries!!) and the virtual goods are locked inside one game and cant even be exchanged or resold after use. not a fan of using energy for some peoples private flights of fancy. we should prioritise actual infrastructure with social value.

Yet more whataboutism. People need entertainment, but an investment medium that is designed to use as much power as possible is not remotely comparable to the basic needs of humans.
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