Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned • Hacker News Board

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#31

Post by Jensson » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 8:38 AM UTC

skohan wrote: post #14

roenxi wrote: post #10

The basic idea of the economy is people can earn the right to energy, and then direct it to a goal of their choosing. The government making a value judgement about what type of commercial activity is worthwhile is extremely risky. Countries with innovative financial and credit systems have historically steamrolled those that don't have such innovations. We still don't understand the nature of crypto.

One role of government is to curtail negative externalities. If it's possible for a few people to profit by causing general harm through accelerating climate change, that would be well within the government's mandate to regulate against this. It's possible that cryptocurrency will be the future of finance. It's also entirely possible that crypto - which is incredibly expensive energy-wise per transaction - is actuall…

I don't see how banning mining will have any negative consequences at all. What benefits would a country get from having a lot of miners? A few people would get rich at the cost of everyone else getting less electricity or higher prices. The miners relocate, and you can enjoy using bitcoin without any of the local externalities of having miners around.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#32

Post by vadfa » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 8:38 AM UTC

Ekaros wrote: post #28

As person living in country with ties to Scandinavian grid. I see this as very positive. I could argue that current market price situation could even be worse if crypto miners were allowed to externalize their energy cost to rest of society. That is by applying high demand the hydro would have less stored capacity available. Which kinda is currently part of the price problem. They lower the stored capacity and pay ch…

They are not externalising their cost to the rest of society. They are paying the exact cost of the energy they spend just like the rest of people.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#33

Post by de6u99er » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 8:39 AM UTC

jakozaur wrote: post #9

Proof of work for mining should pay hefty carbon tax. Various other industry already pay that tax, why not mining crypto? Crypto fans make various claims, so lets check that. E.g. Any new etherum block carbon footprint would be verified through oracle and smart contracts. Based on that it will be subject to tax that will go to carbon-capture companies. With that incentive, crypto could innovate to better methods and…

I totally agree!

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#34

Post by tshaddox » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 8:39 AM UTC

skohan wrote: post #14

roenxi wrote: post #10

The basic idea of the economy is people can earn the right to energy, and then direct it to a goal of their choosing. The government making a value judgement about what type of commercial activity is worthwhile is extremely risky. Countries with innovative financial and credit systems have historically steamrolled those that don't have such innovations. We still don't understand the nature of crypto.

One role of government is to curtail negative externalities. If it's possible for a few people to profit by causing general harm through accelerating climate change, that would be well within the government's mandate to regulate against this. It's possible that cryptocurrency will be the future of finance. It's also entirely possible that crypto - which is incredibly expensive energy-wise per transaction - is actuall…

Actually using government mandates to curtain negative externalities would look way different though, right? The negative externality of energy production is the same per unit energy regardless of what the energy ends up being used for.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#35

Post by VMG » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 8:40 AM UTC

seu wrote: post #3

"If we were to allow extensive mining of crypto-assets in Sweden, there is a risk that the renewable energy available to us will be insufficient to cover the required climate transition that we need to make. This energy is urgently required for the development of fossil-free steel, large-scale battery manufacturing and the electrification of our transport sector. Based on estimates from Cambridge University, it is cu…

This merely pushes Bitcoin mining to countries that do not have this kind of regulation (and probably have less renewable energy).

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#36

Post by tshaddox » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 8:40 AM UTC

Glavnokoman wrote: post #15

roenxi wrote: post #10

The basic idea of the economy is people can earn the right to energy, and then direct it to a goal of their choosing. The government making a value judgement about what type of commercial activity is worthwhile is extremely risky. Countries with innovative financial and credit systems have historically steamrolled those that don't have such innovations. We still don't understand the nature of crypto.

"The government making a value judgement about what type of commercial activity is worthwhile is extremely risky" Bullshit. That's what government is for. It already forbids commercial activities as robbery, stealing, fraud etc. If they put crypto into the same basket I wouldn't cry much.

But you don’t justify a ban on robbery because of the energy usage of getaway cars, right?

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#37

Post by FDSGSG » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 8:43 AM UTC

Ekaros wrote: post #28

As person living in country with ties to Scandinavian grid. I see this as very positive. I could argue that current market price situation could even be worse if crypto miners were allowed to externalize their energy cost to rest of society. That is by applying high demand the hydro would have less stored capacity available. Which kinda is currently part of the price problem. They lower the stored capacity and pay ch…

>I could argue that current market price situation could even be worse if crypto miners were allowed to externalize their energy cost to rest of society

Nobody has ever proposed that they should be able to do this. This is a hilariously stupid strawman.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#38

Post by guerrilla » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 8:43 AM UTC

BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #23

The background is this: The Swedish government (of which the green party is part) has closed down several nuclear reactors and there is a ban on building more hydro electric dams. Before Sweden had about 50% hydro + 50% nuclear. Now electricity prices are rising a lot, especially on days when there is little wind (which generally is the case on extremely cold winter days), and emergency power plants using fossil fuel…

Your comment on hydro isn't relevant since hydro output hasn't actually changed[1], meanwhile wind production has overall replaced nuclear. Total production has increased slightly while total domestic consumption has decreased slightly. So basically it comes down to increased exports and variability of wind.

1. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/El...

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#39

Post by skohan » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 8:43 AM UTC

VMG wrote: post #27

jakozaur wrote: post #9

Proof of work for mining should pay hefty carbon tax. Various other industry already pay that tax, why not mining crypto? Crypto fans make various claims, so lets check that. E.g. Any new etherum block carbon footprint would be verified through oracle and smart contracts. Based on that it will be subject to tax that will go to carbon-capture companies. With that incentive, crypto could innovate to better methods and…

This is nonsensical. If you want to tax carbon, tax it regardless what it is used for. What you are describing penalizes somebody who uses clean energy for mining and ignores somebody who uses coal power for running his bot farm.

Using clean energy for mining still increases the total demand for electricity which is going to result in more dirty energy production no matter what.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#40

Post by peakaboo » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 8:43 AM UTC

seu wrote: post #3

"If we were to allow extensive mining of crypto-assets in Sweden, there is a risk that the renewable energy available to us will be insufficient to cover the required climate transition that we need to make. This energy is urgently required for the development of fossil-free steel, large-scale battery manufacturing and the electrification of our transport sector. Based on estimates from Cambridge University, it is cu…

I feel like you guys are completely inside the matrix here so allow me to explain...

Bitcoin is being fought by banks and governments because it threatens the dollar and the banking system.

The future they want is a global coin, not a decentralized currency.