D & D was always money grubbing. Fun games, such as Toon , Paranoia and Call of Cthulu come as a single book that has everything you need to run the game including a sample campaign. With D & D you need a whole bookshelf. It has been somewhat reformed but those polyhedral dice are not as fun as they look because people are always looking for the 5th d4 that rolled under the rug. D & D is the one game I absolutely won…
Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art
51–60 of 64 posts
Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art
#52The thesis in the title makes no sense. There really isn't anything so special about the D&D systems that mean one person working from home couldn't come up with an artistic competitor. You don't need to spend any money on TSR books to run a campaign if there is an imaginative DM handy. The only reason D&D is so big is that the profit lets it advertise and have a presence, so more people know about it. That is a beni…
Aren’t some of the game systems like D20 patented/copy written
Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art
#53D & D was always money grubbing. Fun games, such as Toon , Paranoia and Call of Cthulu come as a single book that has everything you need to run the game including a sample campaign. With D & D you need a whole bookshelf. It has been somewhat reformed but those polyhedral dice are not as fun as they look because people are always looking for the 5th d4 that rolled under the rug. D & D is the one game I absolutely won…
So I can't say you're right or wrong about the money grab, but I think you're missing the point that some people like world building (maybe more than the stories) and some people like storytelling (and couldn't care less for the world).
Some quick examples, a lot of the World of Darkness systems like Vampire, Hunter, Werewolf: You don't need to describe the world like in D&D because it's Earth, with a few differences. All background material is mostly social, political, some tech and "made up" stuff. Contrast this to D&D where you can sell books for every region: the geography, the lifeforms, the history, etc.pp
And I think you can't simply say one is better than the other. Some people want to play in a completely made up world and some people like the setting of Earth (with or without extras, there are also systems who don't have any magic or monsters). And this is a huge part of how many source material there is.
Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
Couldn't agree with this more. The idea that D&D has hoovered up so much of the world as to deny people of their own creative expression is absurd and I couldn't get past the first paragraph without thinking the author is off his rocker.
That thesis is over-reaching. What I would say, though, is that D&D has such market penetration, it's become like kleenex: the uninitiated cannot think of the concept of a TTRPG without thinking of D&D. While other TTRPG's are still free to exist, it is much harder to convince a new player to hop on board with anything else (or to even explain to them how there are games very similar to Dungeons and Dragons that aren…
Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
The vast majority of conflicts were won with pre-modern weapons, but despite that overwhelming statistic, if I had to fight I'd prefer a rifle and modern armour. Maybe historical data alone without other context isn't the best way to predict the future -- unless you're trying to make it look like the past. IMO much of the open-source world appears to function entirely without "some form of coercion"...
> Maybe historical data alone without other context isn't the best way to predict the future So how can you get people do unpleasant but necessary work without direct benefit for them? > much of the open-source world appears to function entirely without "some form of coercion"... Does it? My impression is that the tedious and unpleasant work in large projects like Linux is often done by those who are paid for it.
I don't think we're going to be able to discuss this. Our priors are too different. This question sneaks the premise that people won't and don't "do unpleasant but necessary work without direct benefit for them", despite counterexamples littering the (impressively capitalist) world. Engaging with the question on its face is accepting the premise. It'd be like if I asked the parent "by ensuring that nearly everyone has to do often-meaningless and sometimes actively harmful things in order to avoid succumbing to exposure, what are the powerful people (who can, and do, choose not to debase themselves thusly) trying to prevent?"
For that matter, I might recommend David Graeber's Bullshit Jobs, in answer to implication that all work is necessary.
>My impression is that the tedious and unpleasant work in large projects like Linux is often done by those who are paid for it
Linux itself didn't spring from a salaried worker, and large open-source projects having paid maintainers wasn't a requirement for their inception. AFAICT, paid maintainers exist precisely because their open-source projects have grown too large, unwieldy, and important to be allowed to be someone's pet project that's only worked on in spare moments.
And it's not that nobody's interested in large open-source projects, it's that the current system doesn't allow one to focus oneself entirely on something that doesn't make money, because without money, one dies of exposure. I can say this with confidence, because all those open-source projects that now support paid workers evolved from smaller ones whose contributors worked for free-as-in-starving-artist.
Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
I know you're not arguing this, but for the sake of expanding into the following point: There have been plenty of games and other creative projects that became successful ignoring or even despite the economic system. In fact I would argue that many of the most artistic games that had the most positive impact on me personally were made because they simply had to be made. I'm not a fan of table top games (haven't tried…
Right, today is very different from the 70's, and computer games are very different from table top games. Anyway, I do think that the gaming industry would be much worse if not for capitalism. As you say you can find plenty of good passion projects to play, and even though most of them don't blow up some of them do, giving tons of money to people who have a passion for making games. If not for capitalism, the moment…
Means of production are scarce property which is used (and consumed—even if only for a time) in the production of other goods. "IP" is not a means of production because it is not scarce. This also implies that it is not property, despite the misleading name. It's a social engineering project instituted by governments and not a core element of capitalism.
Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art
#57The thesis in the title makes no sense. There really isn't anything so special about the D&D systems that mean one person working from home couldn't come up with an artistic competitor. You don't need to spend any money on TSR books to run a campaign if there is an imaginative DM handy. The only reason D&D is so big is that the profit lets it advertise and have a presence, so more people know about it. That is a beni…
The history of D&D is an example of capitalism commoditizing creativity.
Initially, there were some very thin rules about character stuff to accompany miniature wargaming. This was not terribly interesting to most people. Wargamers or otherwise.
That grew into some still thin and permissive rules and more of a focus on playing a role and storytelling. The onus was on the players to do most of this. There wasn't much in the way of example or instruction. This attracted the crowd we think of today as makers - self-directed problem solvers who like to greenfield.
That all seemed sort of interesting but not approachable enough, so, in typical capitalist fashion, there were more and more manuals and rule sets and published scenarios. There was a lot more hand-holding for the creatively needy.
Meanwhile, simple algorithmic dungeon crawlers were created on computers. There was only a thin whiff of role playing as theme in combat-mechanic- and metric-heavy CRPGs.
Then we bounce back to TTRPGs who've learned from CRPGs and they become something a bit like CRPGs with slightly heavier theme. Almost all the creativity is sucked out of it. What we used to call "munchkining" prevails. The only meaningful decisions are in character creation, itself a strictly bounded system.
How did this happen? At every step along the way decisions were driven by profitability, economies of scale, and the general commoditization of creativity, turning every game into the same pleasant McAdventure.
Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art
#58Okay, so while Westerners were playing D&D, socialists on the other side of the iron curtain were playing Zarnitsa and Orlyonok, where you attack your opponents, capture spies and interrogate them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarnitsa_game I mean, horses for courses, but you could argue that there would be no D&D were it not for capitalism in the first place.
There would not be DnD without the Fantasy /SF literature and wargaming in general. Little Wars was written by HG Wells ( Socialist and a member the Fabian Society
Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art
#59The thesis in the title makes no sense. There really isn't anything so special about the D&D systems that mean one person working from home couldn't come up with an artistic competitor. You don't need to spend any money on TSR books to run a campaign if there is an imaginative DM handy. The only reason D&D is so big is that the profit lets it advertise and have a presence, so more people know about it. That is a beni…
Aren’t some of the game systems like D20 patented/copy written
Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art
#60I stopped reading here: > Their conclusion guaranteed him a lifelong income but left him bitter at the feeling he was underappreciated for the creative work that made D&D a reality. If any of my endeavors gets me a lifelong income, it frees me to pursue other endeavors in financial peace. Recognition is overrated.
> (jacobinmag.com)