Our self imposed scarcity of nice places • Hacker News Board

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#141

Post by ju-st » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 10:40 AM UTC

ascar wrote: post #78

nivenkos wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The walkability comes at the cost of tiny housing though. Like here in Stockholm even 60m2 is getting very pricy (~350-450k USD). The main issue is that there is just nowhere near enough housing to keep up with population increases, seemingly anywhere in the Western world. And housing has become a "store of value" against inflation for investors, driving up prices and becoming a retirement fund for landlords and home…

> Like here in Stockholm even 60m2 is getting very pricy (~350-450k USD). Isn't that still really cheap compared to NY or Silicon Valley? Rising housing prices has more to do with pressure to move to a select few cities rather than walkability or rising population. E.g. in Germany housing in Munich, Hamburg or Frankfurt costs multiples of housing in smaller eastern German cities.

The ratio between real estate price and income is much higher in many European cities compared to the US: https://www.ubs.com/global/en/wealth-management/insights/202...

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#142

Post by doikor » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 10:40 AM UTC

jseban wrote: post #67

sammorrowdrums wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the Netherlands. We bike rather than just walk everywhere, and generally people do more frequent small shops rather than big weekly shop. It takes some imagination and a lot of urban planning work, but quality of life improves dramatically, it’s life-changing. Much Urban planning was involved in making it better for cycling though, and it wasn’t always great for it. Off-road cycle paths being a mainstay for…

> We bike rather than just walk everywhere, and generally people do more frequent small shops rather than big weekly shop. It takes some imagination and a lot of urban planning work, but quality of life improves dramatically, it’s life-changing. Yeah which means that you spend a lot more time and energy on grocery shopping. That is for me directly inverse to quality of life. The more time I spend in traffic (cycling…

It takes me less time to bike to the shop from my home then it takes to find a parking spot in the underground parking garage and walk from the parking spot to the shop.

Same for walking to a smaller shop if I am not feeling like biking that day (so most likely taking metro to work that day). Though the chances of finding a place to park that is closer to that shop than my home is almost 0.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#143

Post by CapitainEvident » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 10:41 AM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #81

dr_dshiv wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use price per square meter to compare European housing to American housing, Europe seems super expensive. But, if you compare by the functional space (# bedrooms), Europe is cheap. I moved from San Diego to Amsterdam and was very happy to find 3-4 bedroom apartments to buy (the bank accepted my self employment income and gave a 1.6% interest rate). Apartments are well designed so you don’t need as much space.…

I guess you're on a US salary as a contractor? There's no way I could afford more than 2 bedrooms in the city as a senior engineer, and even that's a push.

I’m not in Amsterdam, but my mate works in Amsterdam and lives on a single engineer Dutch salary in a beautiful 2 bed with a separate dinning/kitchen/lounge near Sarphatipark, 10 minutes walk from Museumplein, walking distance from the Rembrandt Museum and to work.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#144

Post by dr_dshiv » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 10:41 AM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #81

dr_dshiv wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use price per square meter to compare European housing to American housing, Europe seems super expensive. But, if you compare by the functional space (# bedrooms), Europe is cheap. I moved from San Diego to Amsterdam and was very happy to find 3-4 bedroom apartments to buy (the bank accepted my self employment income and gave a 1.6% interest rate). Apartments are well designed so you don’t need as much space.…

I guess you're on a US salary as a contractor? There's no way I could afford more than 2 bedrooms in the city as a senior engineer, and even that's a push.

My own company. Capitol cities are expensive; but compared with most, I still find Amsterdam reasonable. Part of the reason is that it isn’t necessary to live in Amsterdam to have the kind of lifestyle I’m describing; there are so many walkable, bikeable, transport accessible,kid-friendly and beautiful neighborhoods in this country. Open to critique; it’s a beautiful day today so I have my rose colored glasses on.

Here are the family places in Amsterdam for less than 900k. According to ABNAMRO, that’s affordable (with mortgage), if you have two incomes that gross 150k. https://www.funda.nl/koop/gemeente-amsterdam/

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#145

Post by CalRobert » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 10:41 AM UTC

FriedrichN wrote: post #51

CalRobert wrote: post #21

The planet boils because Americans are afraid of living in places as beautiful as the ones they vacation in. If you're an American who'd like to escape, check out the Dutch American Friendship Treaty, or Portugal's new visa for remote work. PT's NHR tax program makes it very popular for FIRE too. It's not Amsterdam but moving to Dublin from LA did wonders for my happiness. The next goal is living somewhere my kid can…

Not to burst your Amsterdam bubble, but you basically have to be a millionaire to be able to buy a house there right now. House prices have been rising like crazy in the Netherlands and Amsterdam in particular. Amsterdam is now for the elite, basically the point the article is complaining about.

Sadly true, after watching NotJustBike's video on Halloween I looked up Apollobuurt and it looks like places are a million or so (still cheaper than SF, at least!)

A second-tier city like Utrecht, etc. is more likely. Or just staying put because $currenthouse is paid off and that's awfully nice.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#146

Post by nivenkos » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 10:42 AM UTC

jseban wrote: post #139

_vbnz wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree completely, at least here in Sweden it's harder to rent flats out, so this is less common (it might change next year though when the conservatives/nationalists win). IMO I'd make renting restricted to government monopoly (like alcohol sales in Sweden, and the old first-hand contracts system), and property ownership restricted to your residence only, and then build much, much more whilst stopping mass immigrat…

Renting is basically already restricted to government policy in Stockholm, and the result is 15 years waiting time to get a flat.

Yeah, the first-hand contracts system is a disaster atm.

But note that waiting time only applies to first-hand contracts. You can still rent second-hand.

The idea would be to build much more, and buy up the former second-hand places.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#147

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 10:42 AM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #81

dr_dshiv wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use price per square meter to compare European housing to American housing, Europe seems super expensive. But, if you compare by the functional space (# bedrooms), Europe is cheap. I moved from San Diego to Amsterdam and was very happy to find 3-4 bedroom apartments to buy (the bank accepted my self employment income and gave a 1.6% interest rate). Apartments are well designed so you don’t need as much space.…

I guess you're on a US salary as a contractor? There's no way I could afford more than 2 bedrooms in the city as a senior engineer, and even that's a push.

Yeah, that US viewpoint kinda irks me too. Of course Europe is cheap when you earn US tech salaries. Amsterdam is definitely not cheap on your average non-FAANG/IB local Dutch wages.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#148

Post by CalRobert » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 10:42 AM UTC

GingerMidas wrote: post #31

CalRobert wrote: post #21

The planet boils because Americans are afraid of living in places as beautiful as the ones they vacation in. If you're an American who'd like to escape, check out the Dutch American Friendship Treaty, or Portugal's new visa for remote work. PT's NHR tax program makes it very popular for FIRE too. It's not Amsterdam but moving to Dublin from LA did wonders for my happiness. The next goal is living somewhere my kid can…

Did the change in weather not upset you? LA's winters are mild at worst, I think that'd be the biggest hurdle for me.

I hated summer in Los Angeles and remember running the aircon in February thinking "I need to get the hell out of here".

January is rough but overall I prefer Irish weather.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#149

Post by Ma8ee » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 10:42 AM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #14

fsloth wrote: post #8

Fantastic cultural divide. This is one of the reasons why I read HN. Most of Europe is more or less walkable - one reason is that the largest urban centers predate cars, but intentional design AF (anno ford) is also a factor. I can bike or walk everywhere, and the only reason I have a car is that it makes grocery shopping much, much easier. I am not very green or anything, I just like to keep things simple. You can c…

The walkability comes at the cost of tiny housing though. Like here in Stockholm even 60m2 is getting very pricy (~350-450k USD). The main issue is that there is just nowhere near enough housing to keep up with population increases, seemingly anywhere in the Western world. And housing has become a "store of value" against inflation for investors, driving up prices and becoming a retirement fund for landlords and home…

No, it's not walkability that makes apartments in central Stockholm expensive. There's just not much more space there for more houses. For decades car traffic was what was prioritised. Just look at old Slussen which was just a couple of big traffic circles, with narrow tunnels for pedestrians. Or Sergel's torg, arguably the most central square in Sweden, which is dominated by a big traffic circle and with shops and pedestrian areas underground.

Then it is true that too little housing is built, and with the current very low interest rates people can afford to pay a lot for their dwellings. But I don't think it is intentional to not build more.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#150

Post by Maarten88 » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 10:43 AM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #92

ascar wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like here in Stockholm even 60m2 is getting very pricy (~350-450k USD). Isn't that still really cheap compared to NY or Silicon Valley? Rising housing prices has more to do with pressure to move to a select few cities rather than walkability or rising population. E.g. in Germany housing in Munich, Hamburg or Frankfurt costs multiples of housing in smaller eastern German cities.

Yeah, but the salaries are much, much lower. SF: ~$167k USD p.a. - https://www.builtinsf.com/salaries/dev-engineer/software-eng... Stockholm: 45k SEK per month = ~$63k USD p.a. - https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/stockholm-software-engine... Taxes are also much higher (especially if your employer has good health insurance coverage in the US, so the added benefits are less). Like I pay an average 40% rate on income p…

> remember those freedoms can also destroy your life, if you end up on the other end. Americans have to step over homeless people on the sidewalks, who got fired, who got sick while uninsured, who are addicted or mentally ill. Those who do well live in suburbia, where their kids are also not that free, going outside alone is too dangerous.

Those taxes pay for other forms of freedom