Our self imposed scarcity of nice places • Hacker News Board

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#91

Post by timeon » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:47 AM UTC

jseban wrote: post #12

fsloth wrote: post #8

Fantastic cultural divide. This is one of the reasons why I read HN. Most of Europe is more or less walkable - one reason is that the largest urban centers predate cars, but intentional design AF (anno ford) is also a factor. I can bike or walk everywhere, and the only reason I have a car is that it makes grocery shopping much, much easier. I am not very green or anything, I just like to keep things simple. You can c…

> I can bike or walk everywhere, and the only reason I have a car is that it makes grocery shopping much, much easier. Yes, you still want a car for such things, sure it's quaint and nice to have a "walkable" neighborhood, if you're a tourist, but if you live there and have to schlep around by foot with your groceries every day, in all weathers, it's just annoying. I want my neighborhood to be functional and efficien…

> Also in urban environments, making a lot of "inviting" public spaces for people to hang around and loiter is not always a great idea.. this also attracts a lot of crime, drugs etc

This not problem for inviting spaces per se. But spaces where you can hide. If you have this in ordinary "inviting" public spaces the that is sign of dysfunctional society. Most parks and town squares in cities I have lived are safe (at least if you are man).

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#92

Post by nivenkos » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:50 AM UTC

ascar wrote: post #78

nivenkos wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The walkability comes at the cost of tiny housing though. Like here in Stockholm even 60m2 is getting very pricy (~350-450k USD). The main issue is that there is just nowhere near enough housing to keep up with population increases, seemingly anywhere in the Western world. And housing has become a "store of value" against inflation for investors, driving up prices and becoming a retirement fund for landlords and home…

> Like here in Stockholm even 60m2 is getting very pricy (~350-450k USD). Isn't that still really cheap compared to NY or Silicon Valley? Rising housing prices has more to do with pressure to move to a select few cities rather than walkability or rising population. E.g. in Germany housing in Munich, Hamburg or Frankfurt costs multiples of housing in smaller eastern German cities.

Yeah, but the salaries are much, much lower.

SF: ~$167k USD p.a. - https://www.builtinsf.com/salaries/dev-engineer/software-eng...

Stockholm: 45k SEK per month = ~$63k USD p.a. - https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/stockholm-software-engine...

Taxes are also much higher (especially if your employer has good health insurance coverage in the US, so the added benefits are less). Like I pay an average 40% rate on income plus 25% sales tax, the marginal rate on income (and RSUs, etc.) is 56%!

It's really painful for stuff like housing which is a similar price (and increasing!), or inelastic international goods like electronics, cars, fuel (which is also heavily taxed), etc.

Americans are incredibly lucky - far higher wages, and the freedom to manage your own finances (not forced to pay for irresponsible parents' lifestyle choices through extremely high taxes).

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#93

Post by jseban » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:51 AM UTC

rekado wrote: post #76

jseban wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah and if you stopped doing that and instead used a car to buy your groceries or ordered them delivered to your doorstep, you would have more free time and more energy. People want free time and energy. Just because it "works" for you to walk in the cold rain carrying groceries in a backback, doesn't make it the best solution. If there are better solutions, why insist on doing it the worst possible way?

Oh, you misunderstand. Involving a car would most definitely not make it a better solution. I have no interest whatsoever to involve cars in my life. Having to share the roads with them is bad enough. (The arrogance of space is ridiculous.) Deliveries: these cost little because people aren't paid properly. If I wanted to pay them properly, I wouldn't be able to use their services much. So instead of normalizing explo…

Yeah so you do it because of political reasons and virtue signalling, this is a core leftist value that efficiency and productivity should suffer in the name of "equality".

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#94

Post by stephen_g » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:52 AM UTC

jseban wrote: post #12

fsloth wrote: post #8

Fantastic cultural divide. This is one of the reasons why I read HN. Most of Europe is more or less walkable - one reason is that the largest urban centers predate cars, but intentional design AF (anno ford) is also a factor. I can bike or walk everywhere, and the only reason I have a car is that it makes grocery shopping much, much easier. I am not very green or anything, I just like to keep things simple. You can c…

> I can bike or walk everywhere, and the only reason I have a car is that it makes grocery shopping much, much easier. Yes, you still want a car for such things, sure it's quaint and nice to have a "walkable" neighborhood, if you're a tourist, but if you live there and have to schlep around by foot with your groceries every day, in all weathers, it's just annoying. I want my neighborhood to be functional and efficien…

Making places inviting does the opposite for crime if you do it right. You get what’s called ‘natural surveillance’ that is, where there tends to be enough people around, seeing what’s going on that it discourages crime.

This is talking serious crime - obviously things like pickpocketing can still happen.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#95

Post by sokoloff » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:54 AM UTC

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #79

> Would you like to raise a family in those conditions? apparently hundreds of millions of people already do it... A provocative answer to your comment: would you like to raise your family where your kids can walk to school and play with other kids in a nearby park at walking distance and never be afraid of mass shootings? I get the impression that huge houses are a symptom of a bigger issue: people in US feel they n…

I would like to (and do) raise my family like that. We live in Cambridge, MA; our kids walk to school and to play with friends in the park, I’ve never feared a mass shooting*, we have reasonable accommodations for cars, bikes, and pedestrians.

* - Do you live in fear of drowning, choking, or bicycling? All are significantly higher lifetime risks in America than mass shootings. Drowning is 10x more likely but few live in fear of it. Use statistics to guide your intuition on fears. (I’ve had well-meaning family members caution me about sharks before a day at the ocean. Sharks are sensational and sell ads, but are not the actual risk.) https://www.businessinsider.com/us-gun-death-murder-risk-sta...

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#96

Post by crooked-v » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:55 AM UTC

jseban wrote: post #73

crooked-v wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most common case is that I'm picking up about three days' worth of ingredients at a time, in which case I walk either five or eight minutes (depending on which shop has the better stuff for my list) and carry home one large grocery bag. Since I don't need to worry about parking or traffic, I can fit this into my schedule whenever and usually do so when I'm already on my way home from somewhere else. The actual mi…

Three days of ingredients is a lot, with your toilet paper and laundry detergent and everything, this breaks down immediately if you're only two people. So if you are a couple then both of you have to go shopping, that's twice the time you spend. Not to mention if you are a family

Three days of food ingredients for two people isn't actually a lot, assuming you already have bulk staples (flour, sugar, rice, etc) in your pantry. I'm already including all the other incidentals outside of bulk staples: add occasional toilet paper rolls, paper towels, olive oil and vinegar, minor snacks, etc, and you get the one large grocery bag on average per trip. Maybe two if you're eating things that are bulky to carry (e.g. kale or something with a ton of eggs).

Like, come on. No typical two-person household is going through a full package of toilet paper and an entire mid-sized bottle of laundry detergent every three days.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#97

Post by cjfd » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:56 AM UTC

jseban wrote: post #12

fsloth wrote: post #8

Fantastic cultural divide. This is one of the reasons why I read HN. Most of Europe is more or less walkable - one reason is that the largest urban centers predate cars, but intentional design AF (anno ford) is also a factor. I can bike or walk everywhere, and the only reason I have a car is that it makes grocery shopping much, much easier. I am not very green or anything, I just like to keep things simple. You can c…

> I can bike or walk everywhere, and the only reason I have a car is that it makes grocery shopping much, much easier. Yes, you still want a car for such things, sure it's quaint and nice to have a "walkable" neighborhood, if you're a tourist, but if you live there and have to schlep around by foot with your groceries every day, in all weathers, it's just annoying. I want my neighborhood to be functional and efficien…

I live in such a walkable neighborhood and for groceries I use a rather big backpack and I can get groceries for multiple days that way. For the my two-person household it is possible to get enough groceries by going to the supermarket twice a week, so either of us only needs to go once a week. Actually, I do not walk the 1 km to the supermarket but go by bike stead.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#98

Post by kubb » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:57 AM UTC

torben-friis wrote: post #85

nivenkos wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The walkability comes at the cost of tiny housing though. Like here in Stockholm even 60m2 is getting very pricy (~350-450k USD). The main issue is that there is just nowhere near enough housing to keep up with population increases, seemingly anywhere in the Western world. And housing has become a "store of value" against inflation for investors, driving up prices and becoming a retirement fund for landlords and home…

>The main issue is that there is just nowhere near enough housing to keep up with population increases, seemingly anywhere in the Western world. Not sure about Sweden but at least here (Spain) housing being bought for investment is much more of a problem than physical unavailability. And I don't mean it as a store of value: People (and companies) buy houses to rent them and have the rent payments pay for the mortgage…

This guy gets it, others seem to be making incredible effort not to see it.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#99

Post by matkoniecz » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:58 AM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #14

fsloth wrote: post #8

Fantastic cultural divide. This is one of the reasons why I read HN. Most of Europe is more or less walkable - one reason is that the largest urban centers predate cars, but intentional design AF (anno ford) is also a factor. I can bike or walk everywhere, and the only reason I have a car is that it makes grocery shopping much, much easier. I am not very green or anything, I just like to keep things simple. You can c…

The walkability comes at the cost of tiny housing though. Like here in Stockholm even 60m2 is getting very pricy (~350-450k USD). The main issue is that there is just nowhere near enough housing to keep up with population increases, seemingly anywhere in the Western world. And housing has become a "store of value" against inflation for investors, driving up prices and becoming a retirement fund for landlords and home…

> The walkability comes at the cost of tiny housing though.

Is it really obligatory? I know that it is often correlated, but it is possible to build apartment tower with decently sized apartments, in a walkable neighbourhood.

Maybe it tends to be more profitable to split apartments into smaller one? While splitting house plots into smaller being less profitable and resulting in this effect?

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#100

Post by jseban » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:58 AM UTC

Jedd wrote: post #77

jseban wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can bike or walk everywhere, and the only reason I have a car is that it makes grocery shopping much, much easier. Yes, you still want a car for such things, sure it's quaint and nice to have a "walkable" neighborhood, if you're a tourist, but if you live there and have to schlep around by foot with your groceries every day, in all weathers, it's just annoying. I want my neighborhood to be functional and efficien…

> ... schlep around by foot with your groceries every day, in all weathers, it's just annoying. You seem to be either contradicting your position, or not accepting other people's comments in good faith. Here you are arguing against carrying groceries every day, whereas I expect most people would - even in the proximity of markets and grocery stores - do perhaps 2 or 3 trips a week. In a comment below you fixed upon s…

How can you argue against the reality that it's better to use a car or delivery for 20 kg, than to carry it when walking. And since it's already delivered by a truck, why walk the last bit it's pointless. It's just a middle class virtue signalling competition oh look who can be the most neo-amish and eschew modern conveniences.

I churn my own butter, because that's better for the environment! Everyone should make their own butter, it only takes 4 hours, that's "nothing" Ban butter factories!