Live data from Hacker News

What is the inverse of a vector?

mattferraro.dev

171–180 of 198 posts

Re: What is the inverse of a vector?

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suppose I want to teach first-semester mechanics If you need to teach undergraduate mechanics, I highly recommend you at least read some of Hestenes’ New Foundations for Classical Mechanics http://geocalc.clas.asu.edu/html/NFCM.html > without any distinctive advantages The most basic distinctive advantage is that you can invert vectors (which is incredibly useful!!) without needing to pretend that vectors are matri…

Can you give an example of a problem that might appear in an undergraduate physics or math course, whose solution is lengthy and tedious by "usual methods" but dramatically simplified by the use of GA? I have seen examples proposed before and been distinctly unimpressed. Any serious simplifications in solutions are usually due to some notation-agnostic insight.

The nicest written-up example I know is https://www.shapeoperator.com/2016/12/12/sunset-geometry/

* * *

As a relatively recent personal example I spent a few months (in bits and pieces) working out a bunch of metrical spherical geometry for myself without reference to past work, with points represented as displacement vectors to stereographically projected points at https://observablehq.com/@jrus/planisphere with the eventual goal of implementing computational geometry / cartography code using that as a canonical representation, which I think is superior to representations used currently in practical software.

The same spherical relationships are comparable (some things slightly slightly easier, some slightly trickier) to represent as displacement vectors in an embedded sphere. But there again relationships are clearer to express in GA terms.

Most of the material there is stated without proof (maybe eventually full proofs should be included), but several of the identities there I worked out very tediously with pages of scratch work in coordinates, then realized afterward the same results could be arrived at with only a few lines of GA.

Only a bit of the material is truly novel (after doing the work myself, I hunted around for sources and found some of the same formulas worked out previously using classical spherical trigonometry 200+ years ago), and e.g. some very similar material where the stereographically projected points are represented as complex numbers can be found at http://fer3.com/arc/img/110279.applications%20of%20complex%2...

In theory most of the rest could be also worked out using complex numbers or matrices, but (a) some ideas end up awkward and unidiomatic there so you would never think to do it, so that many identities that are slightly obscure in GA are almost unheard of written in other formalisms, (b) the algebraic manipulation is at least 2–3x more cumbersome.

Re: What is the inverse of a vector?

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for someone studying vector calculus properly If you can’t invert vectors, you aren’t studying vector calculus properly. ;-) Differential forms are a half-baked formalism. Unfortunately I don’t know of any great undergraduate level geometric calculus textbooks. Ideally there would be something like Hubbard & Hubbard’s book ( http://matrixeditions.com/5thUnifiedApproach.html ) written using GA as a formalism. Hesten…

> Differential forms are a half-baked formalism. I can't emphasize enough how wrong this is. It's the standard formalism in research-level physics and math for good reasons.

[deleted]

Re: What is the inverse of a vector?

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never encountered tensors or differential forms. Your UK undergraduate physics must have been a bit different to mine. About a third of my physics course was taught by the maths dept, and tensors/algebras were very much a part of that. I recall, after freshers week, the dean getting everyone together. He said two things: - Hopefully you all had a great fresher's week, now it's down to business, and - Make sure yo…

> That "maths refresher" was the entire Further Maths 'A' level syllabus. In two weeks. Those of us who had done Further Maths at school were fine. Those that hadn't were shell-shocked. Heh, I recall managing to coast for a short time thanks to having done AS Further Maths. The Further Maths syllabus was quite modular, and the modules our teachers picked had some discrete math (sorting algorithms, Dijkstra's algorith…

Our Further Maths was a lot less modular. Preparation for it started in the 2nd year (so 12/13 years old), when we were streamed for maths - if you were in set-1, you studied to take 'O' level (showing my age here) in 4th year (so a year earlier than most) on an accelerated schedule.

That meant you could take AO (a halfway house between O and A) when everyone else was taking their normal O levels. The thing is that the extra stuff in AO was all Pure Maths, and formed a fair amount of the easier "P1" maths syllabus for the normal A level maths exam, which had P1 and Me1 (Maths with mechanics 1, basically statics).

Because you'd done that work already prior to the A level years, you could take "A level maths" after only 1 year (which looked really good on UCCA applications :), so you've now done an exam consisting of the two 'P1' and 'Me1' papers in the first year of your A levels.

Which meant that in the second year of your 'A' levels, you could do 'Pure Maths' (P1, P2) and 'Further Maths' (Me1, Me2) for a total of 3 maths A levels.

On top of that, you had your other two subjects (mine were Physics and Chemistry), and because it was the JMB board, everyone got to do "General Studies".

Getting all of them gave you 6 A levels, even though some of the work was duplicated in the maths arena (over different years of course :)

S levels were a bonus on top - there was no fudging for those, though, you just took what you thought would be useful to study. They gave me maths and physics because I'd said I was going to do physics at college... :)

Re: What is the inverse of a vector?

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I would have been introduced to Geometric Algebra or calculus of forms or whatever it is called during my physics studies. We learned all the conventional things you need for classical mechanics and electromagnetism, like div and curl and BAC-CAB. But there were a couple of things that we were not tought well, which caused problems later. One thing is that at first, a vector was just an N-tuple. But in physics…

If you want an "intuitive" approach, you might check out this new book: https://www.amazon.com/Visual-Differential-Geometry-Forms-Ma... . Disclaimer: I haven't read it (but I have heard good things).

I have read (part of) it, and it is excellent. I highly recommend it (alongside Needham’s VCA book).

But the lessons learned from there are largely orthogonal to the lessons you will learn from working with GA for a while.

To the grandparent, I would also recommend the very pretty book http://matrixeditions.com/5thUnifiedApproach.html

Re: What is the inverse of a vector?

#175

I'm taking a first semester physics course right now, and we're learning about Torque and Angular Momentum. I just finished a calculus course last semester. Can someone tell me how I would use τ=r∧F on a physics problem for Torque?

You wouldn't really. It's the same concept as `τ = r × F`. the only difference is that it is useful to think of the 'type' of the output as being a bivector instead of a vector -- there's no sense in which it points 'out of the plane'; rather, it is a single vector in the vector space of (planes), with the same magnitude as r × F.

The distinct gets a little more useful when you start dealing with covariance under coordinate transformations. There it becomes more meaningful, because the _vector_ given by r x F doesn't transform the same way as their cross product should.

For an obvious example of why this is true: suppose r=x and F=y. Then r × F = z. If you change coordinates by mapping z -> 2z, then you would be doubling the torque that you computed .. which is wrong; the torque is unchanged. The bivector x^y is correctly unchanged by z -> 2z.

Currently in physics courses (usually not until more advanced mechanics or relativity) the resolution to this is to wave ones' hands and declare that, no, torque is a 'pseudovector'. But it is really much easier to think about if you type it as a bivector in the first place.

Re: What is the inverse of a vector?

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a skeptic too, but I might not be the intended user for the GA formalism. Please explain your reasons. My skepticism of the supposedly superior pedagogy of Geometric Algebra is the following: - 3D vector algebra with the cross product operation and the dot product operation is fairly easy and intuitive. Its replacement by GA might not be so easy. So maybe GA should be introduced after the vector formalism. - An a…

I think your reasons are good and essentially what I would give. I also think differential forms are a much theoretically cleaner way to express the same concepts. Further, teaching differential forms prepares my students to engage with the (vast majority of the) existing math and physics literature. Teaching geometric algebra doesn't. The practical reasons boil down to: I have to teach the standard stuff because oth…

On the other hand, maybe GA can help with differential forms. Differential forms involves exterior algebra, and I feel like some aspects of exterior algebra are elaborated upon in an insightful way by GA. For instance, the grade-2 elements of an Exterior Algebra can be understood as angular velocities in many circumstances. In GA, this is captured by the exponential map that sends grade-2 elements to rotors. I don't know if this can be helpful for teaching purposes.

Re: What is the inverse of a vector?

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Geometric algebra is, as the article points out, a more powerful version of the usual vector notation > the stuff that's already taught is better These two statements seem contradictory. > But it is deficient in various ways when compared to tensor notation (for calculations) and differential forms (e.g. if you want to work basis-free) The author made no claims about tensor notation or differential forms; perhaps t…

> I never encountered tensors or differential forms. Your UK undergraduate physics must have been a bit different to mine. About a third of my physics course was taught by the maths dept, and tensors/algebras were very much a part of that. I recall, after freshers week, the dean getting everyone together. He said two things: - Hopefully you all had a great fresher's week, now it's down to business, and - Make sure yo…

> That "maths refresher" was the entire Further Maths 'A' level syllabus. In two weeks. Those of us who had done Further Maths at school were fine. Those that hadn't were shell-shocked.

Heh, that reminds me of my first physics course in an under-graduate computing degree (in Romania). The curriculum was so well designed overall that this Physics course needed linear algebra concepts that would be taught halfway-through the semester in Algebra, integration along a surface and similar that would be taught at a similar in the Calculus course, and some Statistics I don't remember that would be only be taught in the second semester.

The prof's solution? He taught a 3-hour course covering all of the above, and considered that good enough for all future courses. This particular Physics course later went on to cover analytical mechanics (generalized coordinates, Lagrangians, Hamiltonians), electricity, general relativity, statistical thermodynamics, and quantum mechanics, all in a single semester.

Needless to say, 99% were happy they passed and couldn't tell you a single thing about any of these subjects a few minutes after the final exam.

Re: What is the inverse of a vector?

#178
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's 100% fair, but while I could have made my point using more rigorous language, I think it's still valid. I'm not talking about multiple dispatch based on type which is fine, I'm talking about actual abuse like using fractions to mean derivatives, omiting non obvious parameters, confusing function and value of function at a point, etc. I could go on. Physics notation is an even worse offender btw. Take for examp…

That is statistics, not pure maths. But yeah, statisticians abuse a lot of notations like that, just like physicists. I haven't seen pure mathematicians make such unclear notation. (Statistics is as much maths as theoretical physics is, both are technically mathematics but in practice the field is handled in a very different manner since they are applied and intended to solve a specific set of real world problems and…

Probability theory is not math? (But sure, the same formula can be written in a more explicit way using subscripts and distinguishing random variables from their values.)

Re: What is the inverse of a vector?

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As vectors, obviously they have inverses, additive inverses. Since vectors don't have multiplication, there is no multiplicative inverse A vector is pretty much by definition also a matrix, and there is a standard way to multiply matrices. You can define several inverses of a vector that way, though you can't define a unique inverse. The standard inner product is of course also an exceptionally typical way to multi…

> The standard inner product is of course also an exceptionally typical way to multiply vectors, but the concept of an inverse there doesn't make much sense. Not all vector spaces are equipped with an inner product. The point is that you can start with some simple axioms and build these more complicated things (inner product spaces, algebras over a field, geometric algebras, etc.).

> Not all vector spaces are equipped with an inner product.

Any vector space over a field (usually part of the definition of a vector space) is equipped with the standard inner product, because multiplication and addition are part of the definition of a field.

Re: What is the inverse of a vector?

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been continuous research into alternative pedagogy, but the typical undergraduate intro math/science course looks pretty much unchanged in both pedagogy and curriculum. My undergraduate math and physics courses circa 2005 were only slightly different than similar courses from 1960 (the main differences were things like an online discussion board in some courses, some courses with power point slides instead…

> the typical course is still not that much different 15 years later. For context, I checked your profile to see where you did your undergraduate degree. I am familiar with the way calculus is currently taught at that university, and it looks quite similar to the "radical [...] era-appropriate" textbook that you linked (at least based on a quick read of a few chapters). Those courses are also taught in a quasi-active…

I’m glad to hear that. I never interacted with the intro calculus course there. My impression is that most intro calculus courses around the US today still use some book like Stewart, Larson, or Thomas, and still teach in traditional lecture style.

In poking around I am also glad to see they switched from Griffiths’s to Townsend’s book for intro QM. Much more conceptually clear with less focus on mindless computation. (Disclaimer: I went to high school with Townsend’s daughter.)

I wonder if anything similar can be done for the undergrad electrodynamics course, which was more or less an experiment of “how many gnarly multiple integrals can you grind before burning out?”

Post reply on HN