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How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

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Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#51

Post by dotancohen »

shantnutiwari wrote: post #11

I read Stephen Mitchell's translation, which isnt the most academic but certainly the most readable. It was the 1st time I actually finished the book. My only problem is: It looks like parts of the story are missing. Certainly, the ending is very downer. Spoilers: Gilamesh fails to save his friend, loses the immortality herbs, and comes home empty handed and humiliated. Certainly, one of the lessons is that Gilgamesh…

  > For the story certainly looks incomplete.
Quite the opposite. Modern stories (mostly) have happy endings. But Gilgamesh - like life - ends with (the prospect of) death. That is as complete as a story can be.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#52

Post by AlanYx »

idoubtit wrote: post #45
narrator wrote: post #26

I read Gilgamesh a few times over the years. Two things I found interesting: 1. Sex is viewed as a civilizing force. It brings Enkidu in to city life after being a wild man living among animals for example. 2. It feels as if there aren't a lot of people around and humanity only has a very small island like footprint in this vast unknown world. It's almost like how we feel about outer space today.

> 1. Sex is viewed as a civilizing force. It brings Enkidu in to city life after being a wild man living among animals for example. I partly disagree. Sex is what cut Enkidu from its wildlife friends, but it was not enough to bring him to the city life. After he spent a week soaring in sex, the animals would't recognize him as one of them, that's all. IIRC, to enter the community of humans, once rejected by the anima…

There's an underlying theme of the value of domesticity in the text, which I think runs parallel to the theme of civilization.

It's probably not a coincidence, but rather by design, that Siduri (the alewife) runs an inn (inns were associated to prostitution in that era). Siduri's urging Gilgamesh to abandon his quest in favour of indulging in domestic pleasures is, in some sense, a mirror to the domesticating of Enkidu.* And both of these are linked to some of the broader themes of the value of civilization.

(* And interestingly, Siduri first sees Gilgamesh as a possible thief, because's he's so dirty from his voyage, similar to how Enkidu was first seen as a wild man.)

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#53

Post by dragonwriter »

dotancohen wrote: post #49
lalos wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe the Bible and Gilgamesh comes from the need to pass on important lessons and facts to the next chunk of humans i.e. this is why it's important to learn how to make boats, sometimes climate changes and you need a backup plan, don't eat pork because God says so -- and also because if not properly cooked you'll get trichinosis (they didn't know this but throwing a label of pork = evil is good enough). If you re…

> If you read the bible at face value it has pretty basic rules of society. Specifically, the portion of the Ten Commandments which instructs how to relate to other people (as opposed to relating to God) is just as relevant today as it was when written.

> Specifically, the portion of the Ten Commandments which instructs how to relate to other people (as opposed to relating to God) is just as relevant today as it was when written.

Sure, but the parts of the rest of the exodus narrative (either in Exodus or Deuteronomy, the two places the Ten Commandments appear) that discuss dealing with other people are...less so.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#54

Post by soco »

handrous wrote: post #34
soco wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends a lot on the translation I suppose, because my experience with the old testament was rather unpleasant - reading it in centuries-old language brought me no joy at all.

AFAIK there's no reason to favor English translations of the Old Testament (or anything else) that use now-archaic English, except maybe for passages which are themselves written, in the original, in a kind of archaic or very formal mode, relative to the rest. It can be accurate enough (for whatever purpose—poetic, literal accuracy, et c.) without being stuffy or outdated. Another factor in my naming it the probably…

I guess they were not writing stuff for "readers"? This might be a well-known theory of which I'm just unaware, but could it be that writing fulfilled a different role/need in those epochs?

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#55

Post by adrian_b »

violiner wrote: post #13
retrac wrote: post #3

How appropriate! I have recently (4 months?) started studying Akkadian. Just an intellectual curiosity. I don't really expect to get far. But it has been fascinating. Let me tell you the factoid that got me started down this road: More writings survive in Akkadian than from the classical Latin world. The entire output in Latin from c. 400 BC - 300 AD pales in comparison to what we've dug up out of burned royal librar…

What are you using to study Akkadian?

For a beginner, I would recommend "Complete Babylonian" (Teach Yourself) by Martin Worthington.

It is very accessible. After having some basic knowledge, there are more complete grammars and dictionaries.

The reason for learning an ancient language is reading the original texts. There is no need to become an expert, because there are bilingual editions for most ancient texts.

In my experience, no matter how good the translator is, you can find much more interesting information in the original text, but using a bilingual edition spares you 99% of the time you would have needed to read unaided when that is not your base profession.

For Akkadian, the best text for beginners is the bilingual edition of the code of laws of Hammurabi, which is very clear and easy to read (There is a better modern edition by M. E. J. Richardson, "Hammurabi's Laws", but also an 1904 edition at archive.org, "The Code of Hammurabi").

After that, the bilingual edition of Gilgamesh is recommended, with both the Old Babylonian version and with the later versions.

Unfortunately, the bilingual edition of Gilgamesh (A. R. George, "The Babylonian Gilgamesh Epic" in 2 volumes) is quite expensive (though there are pirated copies on the Web).

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#56

Post by awa »

randoglando wrote: post #43
nindalf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ive read, listened and watched many versions of both the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Of the two, the latter is the superior story in every way. Most importantly for me, the characters. I hope I won’t offend anyone’s religious sensibilities when I say the main character of the Ramayana is a bit dull, one dimensional and treats his wife terribly. The Mahabharata has its share of misogyny, but it has a couple of fanta…

> when I say the main character of the Ramayana is a bit dull, one dimensional and treats his wife terribly. On the mark there. What about the character of Krishna (an amalgamation of 3 tribal gods)? Especially the little child Krishna? From the perspective of the story Mahabharata is superior, but the Ramayana has some great characters (Hanuman, Lakshmana, Sita, Ravana). The Mahabharata's heroes are weaker character…

Personally, I feel the characters in Mahabharata are more shades of grey (rather than just Good or Bad) unlike Ramayana which is portrayed as a fight between Good vs Bad.

Even Krishna's role has a lot of valid criticism in terms of the little he does to avoid the war (being a god and all). The closest clean character seems to be Karna who is on the losing side.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#57

Post by forgotpwd16 »

ramesh31 wrote: post #2

Gilgamesh is meant to be heard, not read. It comes from an oral tradition of storytelling that was thousands of years old before it was ever written down. I just finished watching an incredible performance of it by Abed Azrié, highly recommended: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ARRP5i2nw8

Here's the first tablet in original language sung by Peter Pringle (with help from prof. A. R. George for pronunciation) accompanied with music instruments available at the time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-ex09YaTOQ, a continuation to a very popular video made years ago where he sung an excerpt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUcTsFe1PVs.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#58

Post by adrian_b »

retrac wrote: post #25
violiner wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you using to study Akkadian?

John Huehnergard's A Grammar of Akkadian: https://brill.com/view/title/38184 seems to be well-respected. It's a grammar textbook that goes through the usual topics (nouns, verbs, etc.) Teaches the dialect of the Old Babylonian Empire and should be approachable for someone who has studied another language before. A History of the Akkadian Language: https://brill.com/view/title/21744 was just published. It's monumental…

Thanks for mentioning "History of the Akkadian Language". I was not aware of it.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#59

Post by nindalf »

randoglando wrote: post #43
nindalf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ive read, listened and watched many versions of both the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Of the two, the latter is the superior story in every way. Most importantly for me, the characters. I hope I won’t offend anyone’s religious sensibilities when I say the main character of the Ramayana is a bit dull, one dimensional and treats his wife terribly. The Mahabharata has its share of misogyny, but it has a couple of fanta…

> when I say the main character of the Ramayana is a bit dull, one dimensional and treats his wife terribly. On the mark there. What about the character of Krishna (an amalgamation of 3 tribal gods)? Especially the little child Krishna? From the perspective of the story Mahabharata is superior, but the Ramayana has some great characters (Hanuman, Lakshmana, Sita, Ravana). The Mahabharata's heroes are weaker character…

What conflict did any of the characters in the Ramayana face? Hanuman for example, decides to do Rama’s bidding and then does it. The only major dilemma he faces is whether he should bring the cure for Lakshmana or the entire mountain containing the cure. He goes with the latter. Same with Lakshmana. Only conflict I can recall is when he is told to abandon Sita in the woods. He is torn, but decides to anyway.

Compare these two to Bheeshma and Karna, who spend their entire lives torn by conflicting loyalties.

I don’t much care for Krishna as a character. Since he’s a god, a lot of what he does makes no sense and doesn’t need to either. He is supposed to be inscrutable. Such a character isn’t that interesting IMO.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#60

Post by handrous »

soco wrote: post #54
handrous wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK there's no reason to favor English translations of the Old Testament (or anything else) that use now-archaic English, except maybe for passages which are themselves written, in the original, in a kind of archaic or very formal mode, relative to the rest. It can be accurate enough (for whatever purpose—poetic, literal accuracy, et c.) without being stuffy or outdated. Another factor in my naming it the probably…

I guess they were not writing stuff for "readers"? This might be a well-known theory of which I'm just unaware, but could it be that writing fulfilled a different role/need in those epochs?

Oh, that's absolutely a big part of it. There was no "reading public". Very few people could read and write. I assume all the repetition has to do with making the stories better-suited to memorization and oral retelling. I don't mean any of that as some kind of put-down of the ancients, it's just a fact that a modern reader is going to find the material difficult, and, even once acclimated to the difficulty, of limited appeal, with few exceptions (and I'd call out Gilgamesh as the #1 exception)
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