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How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

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Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#41

Post by dotancohen »

ramesh31 wrote: post #2

Gilgamesh is meant to be heard, not read. It comes from an oral tradition of storytelling that was thousands of years old before it was ever written down. I just finished watching an incredible performance of it by Abed Azrié, highly recommended: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ARRP5i2nw8

Of all the English translations of Gilgamesh, this is my preferred: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPYf8AwNvKg

It is not abridged, and uses contemporary phrasing. If you want to follow along with a text, then I highly recommend using a text of a different translation. This not only reminds you that we are experiencing a translation, but also often adds a new dimension to the action as no translation is complete.

Here is a not-so-good text that seems to compliment the above-linked Youtube reading well: https://uruk-warka.dk/Gilgamish/The%20Epic%20of%20Gilgamesh....

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#42

Post by handrous »

basch wrote: post #36
handrous wrote: post #8

I'm not an expert but I've probably read a whole lot more Near East literature than, considered over a population of billions, nearly everyone. In English translation, but still. A half dozen volumes, I think, cover to cover? Maybe seven? Gilgamesh is the only work out of all of that, that I'd recommend to pretty much anyone who likes literature. Egypt has a couple promising, if relatively late, tales, but both are o…

What are the promising Egyptian tales?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Wenamun

Looks like some people think it is complete, in which case, it's just not particularly good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tale_of_the_Doomed_Prince

There are a few complete ones that are OK, relatively speaking. They're all pretty short and there aren't that many stories from pre-classical Egypt, so if you're interested, I'd say track them down and give them a try, but don't expect easy reads. I guess part of why I favor those two, especially the latter, is that I can imagine they might become great, when whole.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#43

Post by randoglando »

nindalf wrote: post #28
emodendroket wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ramayana sounded like fun though it's hard to figure out which version you're supposed to read.

Ive read, listened and watched many versions of both the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Of the two, the latter is the superior story in every way. Most importantly for me, the characters. I hope I won’t offend anyone’s religious sensibilities when I say the main character of the Ramayana is a bit dull, one dimensional and treats his wife terribly. The Mahabharata has its share of misogyny, but it has a couple of fanta…

> when I say the main character of the Ramayana is a bit dull, one dimensional and treats his wife terribly.

On the mark there. What about the character of Krishna (an amalgamation of 3 tribal gods)? Especially the little child Krishna?

From the perspective of the story Mahabharata is superior, but the Ramayana has some great characters (Hanuman, Lakshmana, Sita, Ravana).

The Mahabharata's heroes are weaker characters, except for Krishna IMO.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#44

Post by jedimastert »

handrous wrote: post #8

I'm not an expert but I've probably read a whole lot more Near East literature than, considered over a population of billions, nearly everyone. In English translation, but still. A half dozen volumes, I think, cover to cover? Maybe seven? Gilgamesh is the only work out of all of that, that I'd recommend to pretty much anyone who likes literature. Egypt has a couple promising, if relatively late, tales, but both are o…

I don't know anything about it, is there a single canonical translation? If not, which one would you recommend to someone who, lets say, wants to read for enjoyment more but is woefully out of practice

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#45

Post by idoubtit »

narrator wrote: post #26

I read Gilgamesh a few times over the years. Two things I found interesting: 1. Sex is viewed as a civilizing force. It brings Enkidu in to city life after being a wild man living among animals for example. 2. It feels as if there aren't a lot of people around and humanity only has a very small island like footprint in this vast unknown world. It's almost like how we feel about outer space today.

> 1. Sex is viewed as a civilizing force. It brings Enkidu in to city life after being a wild man living among animals for example.

I partly disagree.

Sex is what cut Enkidu from its wildlife friends, but it was not enough to bring him to the city life. After he spent a week soaring in sex, the animals would't recognize him as one of them, that's all.

IIRC, to enter the community of humans, once rejected by the animals, he had to stop being naked and to drink beer. The final touch was to defend the herds from predators. Then he was civilized enough to go to the city.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#46

Post by shantnutiwari »

idoubtit wrote: post #39
wl wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rather like how the story is bookended. After everything that happens, it ends with Gilgamesh reciting an excerpt from the beginning to Ur-Shanabi the boatman: Go up, Ur-Shanabi, pace out the walls of Uruk. Study the foundation terrace and examine the brickwork. Is not its masonry kiln-fired brick? And did not seven masters lay its foundations? One square mile of city, one square mile of gardens, One square mile of…

This was after Gilgamesh, fearing death, tried to gain immortality and failed. He's back to his town, but he's not afraid any more. I loved this poignant ending: he's not bitter; cities are there to stay through buildings (walls) and society (agricultural production, religion); meaning we cannot gain immortality as individuals, but what we achieve as a collective outlasts us.

thats a great point-- I never realised it in my reading.

An I suppose Gilgamesh the epic survived, even though the culture/civilisation that created it died out. Which just goes to show that immortality is possible for beautiful ideas/stories, just not for humans

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#47

Post by retrac »

jrumbut wrote: post #31
retrac wrote: post #3

How appropriate! I have recently (4 months?) started studying Akkadian. Just an intellectual curiosity. I don't really expect to get far. But it has been fascinating. Let me tell you the factoid that got me started down this road: More writings survive in Akkadian than from the classical Latin world. The entire output in Latin from c. 400 BC - 300 AD pales in comparison to what we've dug up out of burned royal librar…

I've always wondered, how certain is our understanding of Akkadian? Could the dirge singer have been a tap dancer? My very small awareness of the history made it sound fairly speculative.

It would seem the language is understood quite well, but the cultural context of its use not so much.

Akkadian is a Semitic language, quite distantly related to Arabic and Hebrew, etc. So we know what its siblings turned into, and we have a vague guess for what its unwritten ancestor was like. There are also some surviving bilingual and trilingual Akkadian texts especially in the later period. That includes with Ancient Egyptian, Ancient Greek, Old Persian, Aramaic, etc., which are all understood to varying degrees.

It's interesting to compare to Sumerian, the language of the people who the Akkadians learned writing from. It's not related to anything else known. We only know it through Akkadian bilingual texts, and texts teaching Akkadians how to read and write Sumerian. (Sumerian went extinct by around 2000 BC.) Now Sumerian is much more poorly understood.

Tablets is are sometimes found when cities fell or buildings were abandoned, basically frozen in context. In this case, the letters were excavated from one of the large homes in Sippur near the temple, which had three rooms full of clay archival tablets seemingly related to the life of an important, sometimes-wealthy priest-administrator, descended from a line of them. Chief dirge singer was indeed some priestly office related to public performances of ritual song.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#48

Post by dotancohen »

AlwaysRock wrote: post #19

I had a class in college that focused in large part on Gilgamesh. It was one of the few classes I enjoyed in college. I loved that my very religious teacher said the flood story in Gilgamesh added to the validity of the Bible since it is another historical account of a large flood. I thought it did the opposite and showed that the Bible is just another book of myths with some historical events peppered in, like Gilga…

  > my very religious teacher said the flood story in Gilgamesh added to the validity
  > of the Bible since it is another historical account of a large flood.
You very religious teacher was not alone. At the time when Gilgamesh was first translated, this was the prevailing thought.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#49

Post by dotancohen »

lalos wrote: post #37
AlwaysRock wrote: post #19

I had a class in college that focused in large part on Gilgamesh. It was one of the few classes I enjoyed in college. I loved that my very religious teacher said the flood story in Gilgamesh added to the validity of the Bible since it is another historical account of a large flood. I thought it did the opposite and showed that the Bible is just another book of myths with some historical events peppered in, like Gilga…

Or maybe the Bible and Gilgamesh comes from the need to pass on important lessons and facts to the next chunk of humans i.e. this is why it's important to learn how to make boats, sometimes climate changes and you need a backup plan, don't eat pork because God says so -- and also because if not properly cooked you'll get trichinosis (they didn't know this but throwing a label of pork = evil is good enough). If you re…

  > If you read the bible at face value it has pretty basic rules of society.
Specifically, the portion of the Ten Commandments which instructs how to relate to other people (as opposed to relating to God) is just as relevant today as it was when written.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#50

Post by lordleft »

I find Gilgamesh deeply moving. Near the end of the epic, Gilgamesh embarks on a quest for immortality, impelled by grief over the death of his friend Enkidu. After travails and adventures, immortality escapes him, and he is consoled with the following verse:

"What you seek you shall never find.

For when the Gods made man,

They kept immortality to themselves.

Fill your belly.

Day and night make merry.

Let Days be full of joy.

Love the child who holds your hand.

Let your wife delight in your embrace.

For these alone are the concerns of man."

(Tablet X)

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