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First confirmed hatchings of two California condor chicks from unfertilized eggs

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Re: First confirmed hatchings of two California condor chicks from unfertilized eggs

#71

Post by Apocryphon »

Falling3 wrote: post #68
hadlock wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most Christians believe that Do you have any sort of statistics to back this up? A survey of some kind? From my own experience, most people who are Christian subscribe to the lifestyle and teachings, but do not accept 100% of the bible as truth.

Anecdotal, but I've never met or even heard of a Christian who believed in the virgin birth but thought it was the result of a natural process. Are there any examples of that you're aware of?

There was a Discovery channel documentary in the 2000s that tried to give "scientific" explanations for the miracles in Christ's life. Parthenogenesis was the theory they advanced instead of divine conception.

Re: First confirmed hatchings of two California condor chicks from unfertilized eggs

#72

Post by xxpor »

mistrial9 wrote: post #41
simiones wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Christians believe that that was not some biological process, but a true miracle where God himself bestowed this child on Mary. It would be technically correct that this was parthenogenesis, but it is a completely different... mechanism. Most non-Christians, even if they believe Jesus was a true historical figure, do not believe that his mother was a virgin.

this is complicated, nuanced and not literal; it is a typical thing for critics to latch on to, so let's be wise-cautious with the exposition here at YNews, please

Not Christian, but as my Rabbi used to say: "When God created the earth 5782 years ago (give or take a few billion years),"

Re: First confirmed hatchings of two California condor chicks from unfertilized eggs

#73

Post by blendergeek »

hadlock wrote: post #62
simiones wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Christians believe that that was not some biological process, but a true miracle where God himself bestowed this child on Mary. It would be technically correct that this was parthenogenesis, but it is a completely different... mechanism. Most non-Christians, even if they believe Jesus was a true historical figure, do not believe that his mother was a virgin.

> Most Christians believe that Do you have any sort of statistics to back this up? A survey of some kind? From my own experience, most people who are Christian subscribe to the lifestyle and teachings, but do not accept 100% of the bible as truth.

I don't have data for the whole world, but at least in the USA, most Christians (and the majority of Americans) believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ [0].

[0] https://www.pewforum.org/2017/12/12/americans-say-religious-...

Re: First confirmed hatchings of two California condor chicks from unfertilized eggs

#74

Post by dragonwriter »

simiones wrote: post #38
inside65 wrote: post #32

Many would argue this already occurred with Jesus, born from the virgin Mary.

Most Christians believe that that was not some biological process, but a true miracle where God himself bestowed this child on Mary. It would be technically correct that this was parthenogenesis, but it is a completely different... mechanism. Most non-Christians, even if they believe Jesus was a true historical figure, do not believe that his mother was a virgin.

> Most Christians believe that that was not some biological process, but a true miracle where God himself bestowed this child on Mary.

Most Christians that have spent the time to consider what it means for God to manifest a miracle fairly explicitly accept that that necessarily involves some physical sequence of events, potentially leveraging underlying capacities which in time and space predate the event which God, being all-knowing and existing outside of time and space, may have created for the express purpose of that specific miracle.

And most of the rest of Christians would probably dismiss the mechanical question as irrelevant for miracles, preferring to ask “why” rather than “how”.

Re: First confirmed hatchings of two California condor chicks from unfertilized eggs

#76

Post by the_af »

hadlock wrote: post #62
simiones wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Christians believe that that was not some biological process, but a true miracle where God himself bestowed this child on Mary. It would be technically correct that this was parthenogenesis, but it is a completely different... mechanism. Most non-Christians, even if they believe Jesus was a true historical figure, do not believe that his mother was a virgin.

> Most Christians believe that Do you have any sort of statistics to back this up? A survey of some kind? From my own experience, most people who are Christian subscribe to the lifestyle and teachings, but do not accept 100% of the bible as truth.

> Do you have any sort of statistics to back this up? A survey of some kind?

The virgin birth of Jesus is an article of faith and dogma for Catholicism, itself a major branch of Christianity.

Re: First confirmed hatchings of two California condor chicks from unfertilized eggs

#77

Post by the_af »

dragonwriter wrote: post #74
simiones wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Christians believe that that was not some biological process, but a true miracle where God himself bestowed this child on Mary. It would be technically correct that this was parthenogenesis, but it is a completely different... mechanism. Most non-Christians, even if they believe Jesus was a true historical figure, do not believe that his mother was a virgin.

> Most Christians believe that that was not some biological process, but a true miracle where God himself bestowed this child on Mary. Most Christians that have spent the time to consider what it means for God to manifest a miracle fairly explicitly accept that that necessarily involves some physical sequence of events, potentially leveraging underlying capacities which in time and space predate the event which God,…

> Most Christians that have spent the time to consider what it means for God to manifest a miracle fairly explicitly accept that that necessarily involves some physical sequence of events

That hasn't been my experience. I don't know about "most" Christians -- I wouldn't dare presume to speak for anyone in the US, for example -- but every Catholic I've spoken with (I live in a majorly Catholic country) believes in the entirely miraculous virgin birth of Jesus.

I think the phrasing "most Christians that have spent the time to consider [...]" is unfortunate; it reads like "every Christian which believes [this thing] believes [this thing]". Or it makes Christians who do believe in the miraculous birth without a prior physical setup to be somehow less thinking Christians.

Do note I'm an atheist myself so I certainly don't believe in miracles, either direct or indirect; I've no dog in this race.

Re: First confirmed hatchings of two California condor chicks from unfertilized eggs

#78

Post by nitrogen »

dredmorbius wrote: post #64

For those thinking "Dupe", this specific submission seems to have hit the 2nd chance queue, as the item was submitted 2 days ago. Meaning it's not actually a duplicate. Algolia shows the original submission date, at least for now: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastMonth&page=0&prefix=fa...

It appears there was a related story though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29070133

Re: First confirmed hatchings of two California condor chicks from unfertilized eggs

#79

Post by dragonwriter »

the_af wrote: post #77
dragonwriter wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most Christians believe that that was not some biological process, but a true miracle where God himself bestowed this child on Mary. Most Christians that have spent the time to consider what it means for God to manifest a miracle fairly explicitly accept that that necessarily involves some physical sequence of events, potentially leveraging underlying capacities which in time and space predate the event which God,…

> Most Christians that have spent the time to consider what it means for God to manifest a miracle fairly explicitly accept that that necessarily involves some physical sequence of events That hasn't been my experience. I don't know about "most" Christians -- I wouldn't dare presume to speak for anyone in the US, for example -- but every Catholic I've spoken with (I live in a majorly Catholic country) believes in the…

> but every Catholic I've spoken with (I live in a majorly Catholic country) believes in the entirely miraculous virgin birth of Jesus.

Sure. I’m a Catholic and I believe that.

It’s also a non-explanation that doesn't actually rule out any particular physical process occurring as part of the manifestation of the miracle.

Other than things like the routine transubstantiation of the elements of the eucharist, where a defined part of the miracle is the absence of any physical manifestation of it occurring [0], that's pretty typical of miracles.

[0] Why doesn't the bread and wine that miraculously becomes the body and blood of Christ taste like flesh and blood? Well, because it miraculously also retains all the physical properties of bread and wine...

Re: First confirmed hatchings of two California condor chicks from unfertilized eggs

#80

Post by AutumnCurtain »

simiones wrote: post #25
irrational wrote: post #15

Hmm, all birds are dinosaurs. It’s been a long time since I last saw Jurassic Park, but wasn’t something like this a plot line in the film?

The plotline there, as far as I remember, was that bullfrog DNA meant that some female dinosaurs could actually morph to become male and reproduce with the females (this is something that happens in some fish, amphibians, and even reptiles, where sex is not genetically determined).

Correct, and they had a designed lysine deficiency that was supposed to make them reliant on human-given dietary supplements to live. By consuming lysine-rich foods they were able to live without humans and some gradually changed sex to become male, leading to viable reproductive groups on the island.
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