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University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

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Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#361
post #349

"Three University of Florida professors were denied permission from the school to testify in a major voting rights case " What the fuck is 'permission to testify'? I thought access to justice was a constitutional right. If you can't get anyone to tesrify, then you have no access to justice. We have surrendered so many rights in various contracts, we hardly have any freedoms left.

The professors were looking to make money by testifying against the interests of their employer's parent organization: > "the university denied requests of these full-time employees to undertake outside paid work that is adverse to the university's interests as a state of Florida institution." This seems reasonable to me; if they want to testify to express themselves, they can still do it pro-bono, otherwise, they sh…

The supreme court has historically taken a more nuanced stance on this sort of issue than you.

Broadly speaking in the US everyone has many constitutional protections against the government restricting them in certain ways. When you become a government employee you give up only the most narrow subset of the protections necessary for the government to effectively be your boss.

This means the professors have a reasonably strong court case as mentioned by their lawyer in TFA.

See for example https://www.popehat.com/2013/09/05/ninth-circuit-clarifies-f...

> First a court must determine whether or not the speech is on a matter of public interest. Speech on matters of public interest are entitled to protection, even when uttered by employees; speech on purely private matters (like, say, a private and internal spat among employees) is not. Then the court must balance the employer's interest in an orderly and efficient workplace against the speech rights of the employee, taking into account things like whether the speech restriction is content-based (that is, whether it censors some viewpoints but not others), the circumstances of the speech, the strength of the employee's interest in the speech, whether the speech genuinely disrupts discipline and order and interferes with relationships, and so on.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MLive is considered a relatively unbiased production. To call what they've presented as "narrative" reveals your own bias. Perhaps you'd prefer a source closer to your own proclivities [1] which states: > Last week, the lawyer for one defendant filed a motion that included texts from an FBI agent to a key informant, the Iraq War veteran, directing him to draw specific people into the conspiracy — potential evidence o…

I'm familiar with MLive, but even good organizations are capable of making mistakes. As for "evidence presented to the court" that is not what this is. It is a motion to compel discovery in hopes of uncovering such evidence. Such motions can be quite legitimate and well founded, but they can also be desperate fishing expeditions. Either way, they are not evidence in and of themselves. For MLive to report these claims…

> The endless parade of ad hominem attacks isn't helpful either. Read the site guidelines before you decide to keep digging that hole.

My mistake was assuming good faith and a reasonable disposition, and not looking into your activity before replying. Your bio and spate of recent replies make it clear that any conversation in good faith is impossible. Citing the site guidelines is a convenient and lazy escape hatch draped in irony as you seem to flaunt them at will. Rest assured, we'll have no further interaction.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#363
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://youtu.be/lSM-9RBk3HQ Or just make a deepfake of anyone you want saying anything you want and try them in the court of public opinion. Mob justice is a poor form of investigation.

Courts in the US often do nothing, so mob justice is all you have. This is a separate issue that will need to be addressed. It will soon be possible to claim any video or audio evidence is faked. I don't know what happens then, but building off of what happens now, each piece of evidence is just weighting the scales one direction.

We have more options than mob justice. Who told you that, that was our only option? Once you resort to mib justice, their verdicts can't just be "taken back". I'll give you a link to Emmett Till, and that's what mob justice brings.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the last election was above board I have a bridge to sell you.

Nobody wants to buy a bridge, we want you to provide evidence for your assertions.

The people prone to this thinking aren’t really able to objectively evaluate evidence, the idea is that it’s plainly true and you need to accept it as well. The evidence they usually provide assumes that you will also accept unfounded, baseless allegations as factually true and proven, and when you point out the logical inconsistencies they’ll just swap that out with another bad argument. It’s not really useful to attempt to rationally engage with them, they didn’t rationally come to their conclusions.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#365
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The professors were looking to make money by testifying against the interests of their employer's parent organization: > "the university denied requests of these full-time employees to undertake outside paid work that is adverse to the university's interests as a state of Florida institution." This seems reasonable to me; if they want to testify to express themselves, they can still do it pro-bono, otherwise, they sh…

The supreme court has historically taken a more nuanced stance on this sort of issue than you. Broadly speaking in the US everyone has many constitutional protections against the government restricting them in certain ways. When you become a government employee you give up only the most narrow subset of the protections necessary for the government to effectively be your boss. This means the professors have a reasonab…

The critical question here is whether the University is restricting alternate employment or speech. It seems reasonable that a full-time employee on salary be prohibited from accepting simultaneous alternative employment in their primary field of work.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#366

Probably what's going on is that someone on the board of trusties gets money from the political establishment in Florida and is worried that they'll lose it if the voting barriers are fixed and different leadership is elected. This has similarities with the shenanigans pulled by Sinema and Manchin around the Build Back Better plan. Political horse trading to advance the agendas of special interests, at great expense…

The school receives most of their funding from the state, and the state gets to appoint half of their board. The school is concerned that the state could retaliate against them for allowing the professors to testify. Which is probably illegal, but probably wouldn't be addressed for months or years.

The easy way out of this is for the court to subpoena the professors. I wouldn't be surprised if U of F was taking this stance to force that to occur, and which point they can shrug, and say "we tried, but they were subpoenaed..."

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#367
I assume UF has a conflict of interest office for this reason and I can see UF's argument whether I agree with the outcome or not. So I would ask why these 3 professors? Are there not private Florida institutions (e.g. UMiami) or universities in other states that have voting rights experts?

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#368
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have proof states are auditing for dead voters for example? I mean, that's trivial. KY: https://www.wtvq.com/more-than-10000-dead-voters-removed-fro... NC: https://wlos.com/news/local/how-are-names-of-deceased-people... CA: https://www.ocvote.com/registration/keeping-your-registratio... (this one is particularly detailed on the methods used, including "The Registrar of Voters office checks the obituaries lis…

Yeah, 15 seconds of the slightest search efforts can bring any of this up. I've found time and time again that anybody who believes there is or ever has been even the slightest issue with "dead voters" is somebody who simply can't be reasoned with, and engagement just isn't worth the effort. They're completely lost and engulfed in a sea of "their own research"

The problem with all of this is that it's complicated, people misstate things, and everybody is eager to prove that "their side" is right.

So then you get excessive claims like "no state purges voter rolls" which is just easily falsifiable, and then it gets falsified and leads one side to believe that to be the end of it.

Whereas what really happens is that a state goes to purge its voter rolls, they have a list of 100,000 "dead people" and the list is erroneous and contains hundreds of live people, because government databases are full of dung. So then they get sued, often right before the election, to prevent any of the names from being purged, including any of the 99,000+ who were actually dead.

Another thing that happens is that someone dies between the last purge and the election. Then either they submitted their ballot before they died (but were ineligible to vote because they weren't alive on election day), or they were sent a ballot after they died and a member of their family submitted it. So there are always a few dead people in every election who voted after they died, and some of these are actually fraud (in the second case), and others aren't "fraud" but they're still invalid votes that shouldn't be counted. Rarely if ever does this, alone, change the outcome; but the ballots are there.

Which results in the over-claim on the other side. "There are zero dead people voting." Also easily falsifiable.

Then each side gets to declare the other side wrong and biased and hidebound and irrational.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, your numbers are wrong[1]. And second, thanks to Trump, R's lost a lot of seats in CA by close margins. Before Trump, the CA delegation was more balanced. It should also be said that CA Democrats are a super majority. Once you get into super majority territory, it would essentially require a reverse gerrymander to protect minority seats. CA uses a nonpartisan process to create their congressional maps.…

Thanks for the link. The congress vote went 66-34. The congressional delegation, 79-21. There is a noticeable gap there, any plan to fix it?

I don't think anyone on either side really thinks this is a problem. Look at Utah for a counter example, 75% of delegates with 60% of the congressional vote.

No one on the left is complaining about Utah. When elections are winner take all, big majorities result in oversized representation. And there are still ways for minority party voters to exert influence in these states. For example, they can vote for the more moderate candidate in the other parties primary. The problem is when a state is voting closer to 50-50 like Wisconsin. The Republicans hold a near super majority in the state legislature despite receiving fewer total votes. And because the legislature controls redistricting, Republicans can essentially maintain permanent control of the legislature. That is not healthy for Democracy.

But if you really wanted to fix the CA delegation representation, I would fully support moving to a system where the congressional delegation is determined by statewide popular vote. But that introduces a whole set of issues. For example that means folks would vote for the party instead of candidate, which means we could see further entrenchment of party insiders. The flip side is it would probably make it easier for third parties to get representation in congress. I think this generally would be a hard sell in the US though. I think both core left and core right are too distrustful of their respective party bosses to trust the selection process, and we are a very diverse country, geographically and culturally. So having local representation is meaningful (for example, neither AOC or Taylor Greene would survive a process like this, but both of them have very passionate followers that deserve some representation in congress).

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#370
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Courts in the US often do nothing, so mob justice is all you have. This is a separate issue that will need to be addressed. It will soon be possible to claim any video or audio evidence is faked. I don't know what happens then, but building off of what happens now, each piece of evidence is just weighting the scales one direction.

We have more options than mob justice. Who told you that, that was our only option? Once you resort to mib justice, their verdicts can't just be "taken back". I'll give you a link to Emmett Till, and that's what mob justice brings. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till

I live in the US. Courts in the US are often useless. If you have a high profile case you might get justice but usually nothing happens.

I'm definitely aware of what can happen. I don't know how often it does. But if you restrict yourself to forcing justice only when you aren't acting on a hunch you're probably doing the best for yourself you can, because the alternative is usually nothing.

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