University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case • Hacker News Board

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#271

Post by andrew_ » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #216

andrew_ wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad to see this downvoted. Shows just how many have accepted the propaganda fed to them without doing any of their own diligence on the topic. This was an egregious abuse of power by federal law enforcement [1], regardless of the heinousness of the scheme. [1] https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2021/08/dark-shadow-...

Also sad to see a defense attorney's unsubstantiated and self-serving claims presented as Absolute Truth. "Diligence" doesn't mean just cherry-picking whatever source or narrative suits you.

MLive is considered a relatively unbiased production. To call what they've presented as "narrative" reveals your own bias. Perhaps you'd prefer a source closer to your own proclivities [1] which states:

> Last week, the lawyer for one defendant filed a motion that included texts from an FBI agent to a key informant, the Iraq War veteran, directing him to draw specific people into the conspiracy — potential evidence of entrapment that he said the government “inadvertently disclosed.” He is requesting all texts sent and received by that informant, and other attorneys are now considering motions that accuse the government of intentionally withholding evidence of entrapment.

Here's a direct link to the motion [2]. If you'd like to count evidence presented to the court as "unsubstantiated" even with them in black and white (self-serving is moot, as each side of a prosecution is inherently self-serving), well then that's your prerogative - but it speaks to an inability to consider the possibility that your preconceived notions can be challenged.

[1] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kenbensinger/michigan-k... [2] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21011397-caserta-mot...

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#272

Post by scelerat » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

justaman wrote: post #212

ceejayoz wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gerrrymandering indeed has a long history, and it's a bit like nukes - if the other side is already using them, it's hard to hold off on your side. In 2018, North Carolina saw 50% of the vote go to Republicans, but they received 77% of the Congressional seats. A couple rounds of that is a recipe for a permanent minority for the other party.

Should the region/counties that have a smaller population but different work forces or geographical makeup not have representation? Population alone cannot dictate the house of representatives.

But that is how the House is explicitly defined in the US constitution: "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers..."

Part of the problem is that the number of Representatives in the house has been fixed at 435 since the Permanent Apportionment Act of 1929. There would be no "small/rural/unique regions aren't represented without drawing crazy district lines" argument if the number of people represented per US Rep were lower.

And, as we see now, the lines of districts are simply not drawn according to regional peculiar needs. They are drawn by party affiliation, by the parties themselves. Which is insane.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#273

Post by larkost » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

useragent86 wrote: post #223

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The criticism is "this is a bad thing the current Republican Party is doing right now in a widespread fashion"; "there are past examples of the Democrats doing this" is not a defense. If it's a bad thing that we should try to stop any party from doing, then right now that means trying to stop the Republicans from doing it. The bad thing we are talking about right now is the Republican Party trying to engineer a de fa…

So the Democratic Party controls both houses of Congress and the White House, and they're trying to pass bills to give the Attorney General control over all federal elections in the country, but you say that it's "the Republican Party trying to engineer a de facto one-party state."

The big difference is that the Democratic bills all are focused on making sure that more eligible voters can and will get out to vote. They are not picking out groups and trying to discourage those from voting, which many of the Republican attempts at the state level are pretty nakedly doing (e.g.: limiting things that are only done in urban areas, killing Sunday voting because "souls to the polls" drives were so successful in areas that voted Democratic, etc).

So, yes. It is very much not the same thing. The Republican efforts behind a "voting security" banner, when Republicans in charge of the 2020 vote called it "the most secure ever", is nakedly trying to disenfranchise the vote to tip power in their favor despite the majority of eligible voters going the other way.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#274

Post by bob1029 » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #201

Public education institutions are potentially the most politicized arenas in our nation today. Especially K-12 education, where you have to somehow bridge a new chasm between insane ideologies while also keeping a classroom full children working "productively" towards pointless standardized testing objectives. All of this despite most of their dopamine loops being totally burned out from hours of smartphone use befor…

Too off topic or did we hit a nerve?

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#275

Post by mcguire » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

osense wrote: post #259

xyzzy21 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, sure technically, but it also Streisands everything about it. The cost-benefit for prosecutors and the other party isn't a slam dunk! Personally I'd absolutely do it and take the gamble. But I'm risk-thriving (hence started several companies, enjoy international travel, etc.)

Great, so instead of being able to count on the justice system we're basicall back to mob justice?

We like to think of it as democracy in action.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#276

Post by cmh89 » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

whatthesmack wrote: post #187

cmh89 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My state in the US (Oregon) has had universal mail-in voting for two decades and we don't have any voter fraud to speak of. There isn't really a debate here. Anyone complaining about voter fraud is uninformed or purposefully making a bad faith argument in order to justify voter disenfranchisement.

> we don't have any voter fraud to speak of You probably mean you're not aware of any voter fraud. The whole objective of fraud is to have it not be discovered, so it's possible fraud has in fact been occurring and it has not yet been discovered (and/or nobody in a position to do so is interested in discovering it).

No, I mean our Secretary of State audits the election every time we have one and rarely to never finds fraudulent votes.

Voter fraud is high-risk, low-reward behavior in a developed nation-state.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#277

Post by andrew_ » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

cmh89 wrote: post #190

andrew_ wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies for replying to your question with a question. What is hard and expensive about voting today? I'm interested in your experiences on the topic, as I've personally not had a voting experience that was hard or expensive. For what it's worth, I'm considered a minority in the U.S.

It depends on where you are. In my state (Oregon), voting is easy and secure. We vote by mail as a default and if you move and don't get your ballot, you can go to any voting office and request all the way up until when polls close on election day. Now, if you are in republican held states like Alabama or Georgia, it's going to be a different story. republicans use several methods to disenfranchise voters, voter ID i…

I've lived in Michigan, Georgia, Florida, and Texas and (again, as a minority) have never experienced any of these. I'll admit that confirmation bias is a real thing and may apply here, however these points smell of common media talking points and heavy, heavy tribalism. Even as a registered Democrat, I just do not buy into the "Democrats are purveyors of voting righteousness and the Republicans are out to destroy our right to vote" narrative.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#278

Post by the_snooze » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

cmh89 wrote: post #235

the_snooze wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>3. Another tactic is voter roll purges. A lot of folks don't know that they've been unenrolled from the voter rolls till they show up on election day. This particularly effects renters who might not realize they aren't registered at their current address, and miss mail regarding it because its sent to their former address. I hear this a lot, but states do have to keep their voter rolls up-to-date by law. People move…

There are two things that could alleviate the problem without disenfranchising voters. One, don't purge voter roles right before major elections. Two, allow for same day registration updates. You show up, they find you in the system at your old address, you submit an updated registration card, they hand you a ballot, and we all move on with our lives.

I think that's totally reasonable, but I'm still left wondering when and how states should actually carry out purging their voter records. Would a year before a presidential/midterm election be fair? Six months? What about primary elections?

As for same-day registration, I'm sort of for it, but only if people understand the cost involved. And it's not about money. I served as a poll worker in California many years ago, which has very accommodating rules for voting. You can register same-day, vote out-of-precinct, the whole smash. It makes it really easy for voters, which is a good thing. But it has a price: it makes the check-in process more complicated. If there are a lot of people who need to do same-day registration (as was the case in my precinct when the city renamed a street a few weeks before the election), then it causes long lines.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#279

Post by ceejayoz » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:58 PM UTC

bgorman wrote: post #260

s5300 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you're talking about, there was definitely evidence of voter fraud. Not on a large scale, but still voter fraud. It just happened to be from the party that complains about voter fraud non-stop, ironically projection, and gets zero media coverage. In the event it does get media coverage, it's typically presented in skewed or twisted way. For example, an Arizona audit found 99 non-counted votes for the cu…

Do you have any direct refutations to my allegations? Do you have proof states are auditing for dead voters for example? I am willing to change my opinion if there is evidence to suggest credible voter fraud audits happen, but so far I have not been able to find any.

> Do you have proof states are auditing for dead voters for example?

I mean, that's trivial.

KY: https://www.wtvq.com/more-than-10000-dead-voters-removed-fro...

NC: https://wlos.com/news/local/how-are-names-of-deceased-people...

CA: https://www.ocvote.com/registration/keeping-your-registratio... (this one is particularly detailed on the methods used, including "The Registrar of Voters office checks the obituaries listed in the newspapers daily" and "a list of deceased voters provided by the California Secretary of State’s office multiple times per year")

FL: https://www.duvalelections.com/Voter-Information/Removal-of-...

The Social Security Administration provides a list (https://www.ssa.gov/dataexchange/request_dmf.html), and states check against their own death certificates, bounced mail, and other methods.

Sometimes people have trouble proving they're still alive, even. https://www.texastribune.org/2012/09/12/concerns-raised-afte...

People who try it tend to get caught, because it's harder than it seems to get away with:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/republican-official-ohi...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/2...

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#280

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

xyzzy21 wrote: post #237

Loughla wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except if the recording is illegal, it can be used, in some states, against you criminally and civilly. I was just having this conversation. You can be sued and/or jailed if you record someone without their consent in a two party consent state. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it exists and is something to think about.

Again, sure technically, but it also Streisands everything about it. The cost-benefit for prosecutors and the other party isn't a slam dunk! Personally I'd absolutely do it and take the gamble. But I'm risk-thriving (hence started several companies, enjoy international travel, etc.)

>Personally I'd absolutely do it and take the gamble. But I'm risk-thriving (hence started several companies, enjoy international travel, etc.)

I did not think I would ever see someone comparing starting businesses and international travel with committing clear misdemeanors and possible felonies and opening oneself up to civil suits.