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Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated

theregister.com

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Re: Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated

#41

Post by wodenokoto »

samizdis wrote: post #2

In hindsight, I find it hard not to feel complicit, having invited friends and family to Gmail back in the day when invites were a thing. I had actually believed Google's "don't be evil" line, when it launched what was a brilliant stripped-down search product. (And yes, I defected from AltaVista with the crowd. Oh, how I miss case-sensitive queries; how I miss all those relevant results.) I was far too gullible.

I believe altervista would be terrible today. The same with early google.

The web has changed. If you look at page rank, it is basically a random walk of the internet and most visited locations get the highest rank.

Today you simply cannot trust websites to link to content just for the love of sharing good content. You can’t even trust webpages to be relevant to the keywords they write in their content. You can’t even trust them to show the same content to search engines as they show to regular users.

A modern search engine has an adverse relationship to the pages it is indexing. In the good old days they had a trusting relationship.

Re: Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated

#42

Post by mc32 »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #24
samizdis wrote: post #2

In hindsight, I find it hard not to feel complicit, having invited friends and family to Gmail back in the day when invites were a thing. I had actually believed Google's "don't be evil" line, when it launched what was a brilliant stripped-down search product. (And yes, I defected from AltaVista with the crowd. Oh, how I miss case-sensitive queries; how I miss all those relevant results.) I was far too gullible.

If you go back and read the stuff from Brin and Page at the time, they do actually go to quite some lengths explaining how crucially important it is for search results to be relevant, and the original PageRank paper even outlines methods for reducing manipulation from commercial interests. It's a jarring contrast to what Google is today. "[...] we believe the issue of advertising causes enough mixed incentives that i…

From a viability perspective they might not have had a choice —but they could at least have put up a fight.

Overture, which they acquired, did paid ranking, which is reminiscent of AOLs keyword(s).

If Google had stuck to their ideals, someone would have come around and commercialized the idea (as Google did).

The tragedy is Google didn’t try to stall all out commercialization but rather doubled down on it.

Initially they may have been afraid of becoming the AltaVista, the best, but usurped by someone better because they weren’t investing gigantic profits back into it to assure dominance.

In the end they became the monster they feared, and not a docile one at that.

Re: Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated

#43

Post by vincnetas »

rightbyte wrote: post #28
kaladin-jasnah wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't data export a requirement for GDPR compliance? Many apps have this feature (exporting my data) and I usually take advantage of it.

The data does not have to be easely portable though, right? I.e. they can send human readable data that can't be directly translated back to its original form.

no, it must be computer readable. you cant print and mail your data export.

  When the processing is based on consent or a contract, the individual can also ask for you to return their personal data to them or transmit it to another company. This is known as the right to data portability. You should provide the data in a commonly used and machine-readable format.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers...

Re: Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated

#44

Post by BlueGh0st »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #32

> And the court filing has claimed that AMP's primary purpose was indeed to create huge amounts of data for Google's internal use, while denying that data to other services. If true: insider trading… Where does the insider trading come in, anyone have details?

The claims of "insider trading" appear to be in regards to their ad-bidding schemes and manipulation. Not actual public securities fraud.

Re: Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated

#45

Post by jrochkind1 »

As a web developer, the AMP story is notable.

On many HN comment-threads people complained that AMP pages were in fact a lot slower than the alternatives they could do, and undesirable in other ways too, and AMP didn't seem to be achieving Google's stated goals for it. Either Google has ulterior malicious motives, people posited; or perhaps is just inertially stuck enforcing something that didn't work out how they intended.

Looks like the ulterior malicious motives were it.

Some people in HN threads are inclined to attribute all sorts of malicious conspiratorial motives to facebook/amazon/apple/google that others think are without evidence and likely have other explanations or at any rate who can say; these revelations probably make many of us a bit more inclined to suspect the conspiratorial malicious explanations with or without evidence. "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you."

Re: Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated

#46

Post by bodge5000 »

iamtheworstdev wrote: post #23
dtech wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what we should've done. Google for a long time won users by making almost objectively better products. It's only in the past decade or so that they started to abuse their monopoly. Putting the blame at government failing to enforce existing and create new anti-trust legislation seems much more sensible than blaming users picking the best products.

well, people could have been more willing to pay for email. Google's search engine was top notch for sure. But when we gave them the right to scan our emails we really handed over the keys to the kingdom.

I doubt willingness to pay would be a factor. To my knowledge, Gmail (or any other google services) didn't start off paid, bomb, and then they made free but paid for with privacy.

I think aside from having 20/20 hindsight to avoid their services and tell others to do the same (which you cant really blame people for not having), I doubt theres much we could do. I guess theres the whole "vote with your wallet" thing, but again, I think that argument is largely made with the benefit of hindsight

Re: Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated

#47

Post by kwertyoowiyop »

blackhaz wrote: post #35
dtech wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what we should've done. Google for a long time won users by making almost objectively better products. It's only in the past decade or so that they started to abuse their monopoly. Putting the blame at government failing to enforce existing and create new anti-trust legislation seems much more sensible than blaming users picking the best products.

One of the biggest assaults is Google Classroom. My son goes to a school in London. He was given out a Chromebook. His Chromebook effectively became his backpack. Everything is in there. They do homework there, collaborate, get used to the "G Suite." Paper is citizen number two. He spends a good portion of his day in Google's ecosystem. I thought Microsoft dominance twenty years ago was scary, but this is something o…

It was always a great part of Apple’s playbook, back in the day. Train the kids.

Re: Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated

#48

Post by pibechorro »

dtech wrote: post #12
samizdis wrote: post #2

In hindsight, I find it hard not to feel complicit, having invited friends and family to Gmail back in the day when invites were a thing. I had actually believed Google's "don't be evil" line, when it launched what was a brilliant stripped-down search product. (And yes, I defected from AltaVista with the crowd. Oh, how I miss case-sensitive queries; how I miss all those relevant results.) I was far too gullible.

I'm not sure what we should've done. Google for a long time won users by making almost objectively better products. It's only in the past decade or so that they started to abuse their monopoly. Putting the blame at government failing to enforce existing and create new anti-trust legislation seems much more sensible than blaming users picking the best products.

Not a monopoly. They are dominant. Start using duckduckgo and other similar sevices. The internet is still a free market. If you continue to use their products you are just whining. Become the change you wish to see in the world.

Re: Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated

#49

Post by wizzwizz4 »

syshum wrote: post #31
dtech wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what we should've done. Google for a long time won users by making almost objectively better products. It's only in the past decade or so that they started to abuse their monopoly. Putting the blame at government failing to enforce existing and create new anti-trust legislation seems much more sensible than blaming users picking the best products.

I find it highly ironic that in a thread about subjective evil one talks about granting more power to governments... The only institution on the planet that has granted itself the right to legally steal, plunder, and murder you... I am no fan of Google, but as much as I despise what google has become, I am do not have a rose colored view of the evil that is government to the point here I think that government could b…

> The only institution on the planet that has granted itself the right to legally steal, plunder, and murder you...

Rights that, legally, only have validity if people want them to. (In theory, in some countries.) In principle, Google is allowed to ignore the will of the people; in principle, the government is not.

Re: Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated

#50

Post by SamBam »

syshum wrote: post #31
dtech wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what we should've done. Google for a long time won users by making almost objectively better products. It's only in the past decade or so that they started to abuse their monopoly. Putting the blame at government failing to enforce existing and create new anti-trust legislation seems much more sensible than blaming users picking the best products.

I find it highly ironic that in a thread about subjective evil one talks about granting more power to governments... The only institution on the planet that has granted itself the right to legally steal, plunder, and murder you... I am no fan of Google, but as much as I despise what google has become, I am do not have a rose colored view of the evil that is government to the point here I think that government could b…

I mean, that's also what the article we're discussing proposes:

> Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated like finance, aviation, medicine, and power.

Regulation by the government is absolutely one tool towards stopping a gigantic monopoly bending the world to its interests.

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