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Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

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331–340 of 419 posts

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#331

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

I used to work in a warehouse driving a forklift. I will take a desk job any day of the week over that hell.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#332

Read The Undefeated by George Paloczi-Horvath. He's a 20th century writer who lived through the tail end of the feudal system in Hungary. The lives of the peasants were not great. They were mal-nourished and lived at the whims of their lords.

> The lives of the peasants were not great. They were mal-nourished and lived at the whims of their lords. Replace "peasants" with "working class" and "lords" with "employers and landlords" and you could apply the exact same statement to 38 million people in the US alone[0]. - [0]: https://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america

A very different situation in degree. The nobility in Hungary considered the peasants to be sub-human. This was partly because they were physically distinct from the upper classes. This, in turn, was because they didn't have enough to eat, though the nobles didn't recognize that.

Also, the high-born were free to rape and kill peasants with no repercussions.

Like I say, read the book.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little hand-wavey though. Who services the machines? Are the machines centralised in mass-manufacture-scales and products distributed (as they are now); or de-centralised but also less efficient (wrt manufacture and supply chain) as a result. What would the raw materials be, and how are they powered (given the carbon-crisis). I'd also ask what specifically are the essentials. Food? Shelter? ok. What about heal…

I love that you are asking these questions. Indeed I think any writing meant to describe an entire economy in a few paragraphs will necessarily be a bit hand wavey. I did try to answer one of your questions: the machines are serviced by the members of the collective. In any plan for a society education must be considered. But much the same way that any halfway technical person can learn how to fix a 3D printer, these…

> I am not sure that decentralization is less efficient.

So, maybe your vision of focussing on the essentials - food, shelter etc rules out microchips which definitely benefit from specialised employees, and centralised operations; but that will rules out a lot of future advances wherein microchips are embedded in everything, or at least until a suitable de-centralised equivalent is found.

In the meanwhile, I'd worry of the problem of being over-taken; i.e other free nations that do subscribe to capitalism and the centrally managed resource model outcompete and invade you - which is arguably the fate of many of the American tribes that lacked the weapons to fight colonialism. Not having microchips can cripple any modern army/defence-force, least of all an ad-hoc decentralised one.

Also, things like injection moulding might be out to - modern products manage cheap mass-productions by producing expensive master tools, and using them to churn out millions of items - unless tribes specialise on produce (in which case we are back to trading goods and services) then no more of these items either.

> the machines are serviced by the members of the collective

This limits how complex these machines can be, and or numerous - which in turn limits how prevalent. Also, back to the question; are all the machines going to be bare mechanical contraptions of wood and steel, or can they contain silicon - which unless you have an answer for fabrication/manufacture, cannot be repaired forever, and will need to be replaced. Modern open-source is parasitic to the capitalist economy around it - 3D printers still contain Atmel mcus and intel cpus, not to mention the motors, rotors and precision belt/shaft/bearings.

> Health care is to me essential but these things would vary from region to region based on cultural ideals and material conditions.

Where do the doctors come from? Are we hoping as many people are willing to spend a large amount of time training, or being trained, as surgeons; as there are people who need surgery? Will we still punish negligent doctors, at risk of no-one wanting to bear the burden of liability if we did?

What about law? Would anyone want to be a lawyer if it wasn't well paid? Would many current lawyers do law if it wasn't well paid?

> I am an engineer and I love to fix machines

I feel this is a strong bias colouring your opinion - many engineers love their jobs, and the things they fix/design/repair/manipulate. You seem to be arguing for a society of engineering, based on the manufacture of things (machines and their products) - but society needs more than things, and people are often motivated less by things too; by wealth and status, for example; I'm not sure everyone can find the same joy in engineering as those who select for it.

> Doctors or teachers often feel similarly

Not so sure that's true. Many engineers care more about the things than the help they provide people, and I'm sure doctors are the same too. If feels too much that everyone needs to subscribe to the same philosophy for this to work, and even then there will be some roles that are neglected in favour of more "engineery" ones..

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats too romantic - physical labour isnt funny when its repetetive and continuous, which most are. Also not using your head is frustrating / degenerative. What helps me most is keeping a balance, making mid day breaks for long runs outside or a nap does miracles. But I agree, it also needs mental relief to regenerate, but doing sports gives at least minimal breaks.

Also, huge cost to your body. Every relative I know who is was the trades, now has issues all the time directly attributable to their work. Their body has aged x2 compared to mine.

Most manual labor has you doing a handful of quite repetitive moves over and over and over until something breaks and you retire on disability.

Some people seem to think it’s like going to the gym or something smh

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t a dig against you, but isn’t this just an idealized view of a communist society?

I mean yes I do call it libertarian communism, tho I often leave that part out since people will be totally onboard until you mention the name. But also it’s a specific scheme that has the goal of lowering the marginal cost of living. And it’s totally voluntary which is not true for all schemes for communism.

> And it’s totally voluntary

Sure, while you are in charge. But when a more ambitious leader bashes your head in and takes over, maybe not so. How much of Lenin remained when Stalin took over?

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#336
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats too romantic - physical labour isnt funny when its repetetive and continuous, which most are. Also not using your head is frustrating / degenerative. What helps me most is keeping a balance, making mid day breaks for long runs outside or a nap does miracles. But I agree, it also needs mental relief to regenerate, but doing sports gives at least minimal breaks.

I’ve done factory style extremely repetitive physical labor, it’s almost meditative as you can kind of zone out. Manual labor generally means issues with injuries, age, and low pay. But I have had plenty of much worse office jobs. Personally my all time worst jobs was nothing to do for 3 months at a stretch while sitting on a client site so I couldn’t simply read a book.

I didn’t find that to be the case at all. In the beginning it was ok but once the days and shifts start to blend into a large unmemorable mess of tedium my mental state very quickly made me find other lines of work. I couldn’t shake the feeling that I’m wasting my time away as some kind of a almost literal cog.

Some manual labor you actually produce somewhat unique things in the end but some you just do the same thing every day and nothing ever changes or matters in any way.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how did those indigenous cultures fair when they came in contact with Western systems of resource collection and distribution? How can a system be both agrarian and strong enough to survive contact with non-agrarian systems? How do you stop 10 people from secretly working hard and producing an extra ration of gruel right under your commie nose?

Well, we just watched the greatest military in the world™ scuttle out of Afghanistan with its tail between its legs, so we know that a primarily agrarian society CAN resist a militaristic society as long as its prepared. Pre-Colonial American societies were decimated by the biological warfare of the Europeans first. Now America turns its taste for biological warfare on itself. But, anyway, I digress.

> so we know that a primarily agrarian society CAN resist a militaristic society

America did not invade, or go to war with Afghanistan - it was attempting to liberate it, not annihilate it.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#338

This feels off. Farming today is a seven day, every day work week. There is no day off with livestock, no matter what century, and what season. If the sun sets, or the weather is bad outside, there are plenty of work to be done indoors. I would presume it was even harder without all the automation and technology in the Middle Ages. Maybe they did not labour for the employer all the time, but all the 'free time' was s…

My wife's 85 year old grandma lives on a small dairy farm (less than 20 animals) and farms it pretty much the same way it was done a century ago. Actually today it's more of a "homestead" than what you'd thing of as a "farm", but this is what "farms" used to be.

During summer there is always a lot to do, as they need to tend to the fields to grow feed and food for themselves, and they are often working from sunrise to sunset. But during the winter it's just looking after the animals - they stay in the barn as it's too cold in our climate to be outdoors - so it's mainly feeding and cleaning which doesn't take too much time.

The idea of such seasonable work seems somewhat appealing to me, as you work hard to get things done for one part of the year, then go into maintenance mode for another. It seems like it is a good chance to recharge and reflect on things, instead of just picking up the next Jira card and forgetting about what you've just done. I imagine places that have holiday code freezes must feel a bit like that, but this is a longer period.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would entice you to read Manna by Marshall Brain.

The positive "alternative" presented at the end seems like a friendly veneer over the same dystopia. Having an AI referee permanently embedded in my spine ready to cut motor functions at the first detected bad behavior sounds almost as hellish as the first scenario in that story.

Maybe I'm just assuming incorrectly, but wasn't that the point of the story?

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#340

This feels off. Farming today is a seven day, every day work week. There is no day off with livestock, no matter what century, and what season. If the sun sets, or the weather is bad outside, there are plenty of work to be done indoors. I would presume it was even harder without all the automation and technology in the Middle Ages. Maybe they did not labour for the employer all the time, but all the 'free time' was s…

> If I recall correctly, the 8 hour day, 40 hour week, and five day work-week are all 19th century trends

If it is, hunter gatherers often worked even less, as Marshall Sahlins noted in "The Original Affluent Society" and other books. Even modern hunter gatherers often work less, although there are less in existence now than there were a few decades ago.

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