Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991) • Hacker News Board

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#241

Post by Retric » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

go_elmo wrote: post #170

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

Thats too romantic - physical labour isnt funny when its repetetive and continuous, which most are. Also not using your head is frustrating / degenerative. What helps me most is keeping a balance, making mid day breaks for long runs outside or a nap does miracles. But I agree, it also needs mental relief to regenerate, but doing sports gives at least minimal breaks.

I’ve done factory style extremely repetitive physical labor, it’s almost meditative as you can kind of zone out. Manual labor generally means issues with injuries, age, and low pay. But I have had plenty of much worse office jobs.

Personally my all time worst jobs was nothing to do for 3 months at a stretch while sitting on a client site so I couldn’t simply read a book.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#242

Post by clairity » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #226

clairity wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and/or idealized socialism. i agree that consumerism is an issue, but the solution isn't 'end consumerism', as that's just completely unrealistic. it'd be more realistic to think of ways to redirect our esteem-giving activities toward people who produce real and essential goods, and the rest would balance out much better as a result. that's diametrically opposed to our corrent system of giving esteem to the wealth…

Isn't ending consumerism essential to avoid running out of resources.

probably not. it's hard to consume lots of stuff en masse by most of the population. in the developed world, we've already largely moved to service economies and have less than replacement population growth, and so in that sense we've "maxed out" on consuming stuff. that's not to say that we're doing a great job at being efficient and frugal in what we consume, but that running out of resources isn't that big of a problem (for the foreseeable future).

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#243

Post by snerbles » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

matrixcubed wrote: post #207

SequoiaHope wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: End “consumerism” behavior where every problem is perceived to have a solution in the form of a quick product you can buy - much of that is a psychological trick played by marketers and rarely solves the real problem. Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc. Des…

I would entice you to read Manna by Marshall Brain.

The positive "alternative" presented at the end seems like a friendly veneer over the same dystopia.

Having an AI referee permanently embedded in my spine ready to cut motor functions at the first detected bad behavior sounds almost as hellish as the first scenario in that story.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#244

Post by bserge » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #186

go_elmo wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats too romantic - physical labour isnt funny when its repetetive and continuous, which most are. Also not using your head is frustrating / degenerative. What helps me most is keeping a balance, making mid day breaks for long runs outside or a nap does miracles. But I agree, it also needs mental relief to regenerate, but doing sports gives at least minimal breaks.

You're right, I think I need to be more specific, assembly line work in some factory might count as physical labor, and that might not be any better, I can't say as I've never had that job. I'm thinking more in terms of the article, construction work, farming, and the more pre-industrial kind of physical labor. For me specifically, it was construction work, bus boy, landscaping, janitorial work and military training.…

Yeah, it was great. Until I fucked both of my knees and my back, and have been in pain ever since. It affected me mentally, as well lol.

No one helped me, no one even thanked me.

Take the mental work. At least you can always exercise enough to be spared them physical injuries.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#245

Post by quin3 » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 9:39 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #236

creato wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you have older coworkers in your physical labor job? I did. Those people were not happy or healthy. I think you are looking back through tinted glasses. I also liked my physical labor job when I was young, but I also know it would be terrible when I was 40 or 50.

Oh ya I did, and I don't mean that I'd trade my job back for that now, you're treated like shit, you're not paid well, you get no benefits, safety protocols are always subpar. Obviously that's why I'm doing what I do now and didn't pursue those jobs as careers. What I remember though is the nature of the work didn't leave me exhausted, depressed and with insomnia when the day was over. So I'm imagining if those jobs…

Yea don’t underestimate the impact of youthfulness here. I’d be willing to bet that the same work you do now wouldn’t have the same impact it does today.

Though I will say, working in UPS facility during college definitely left me exhausted most days. I was an athlete in good shape, but it was still a very taxing job. Kept me in good shape though, which certainly helped stave off any of the psychological impact of a sedentary office job due to physiological changes in my body.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#246

Post by after_care » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 9:40 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #186

go_elmo wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats too romantic - physical labour isnt funny when its repetetive and continuous, which most are. Also not using your head is frustrating / degenerative. What helps me most is keeping a balance, making mid day breaks for long runs outside or a nap does miracles. But I agree, it also needs mental relief to regenerate, but doing sports gives at least minimal breaks.

You're right, I think I need to be more specific, assembly line work in some factory might count as physical labor, and that might not be any better, I can't say as I've never had that job. I'm thinking more in terms of the article, construction work, farming, and the more pre-industrial kind of physical labor. For me specifically, it was construction work, bus boy, landscaping, janitorial work and military training.…

Probably the most common pre-industrial job was farmer, which is super repetitive. Imagine a task like tilling with a hoe, which would be a very repetitive and strong swinging motion.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#247

Post by rglover » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

When it comes to creative/mental jobs, the most productive form of work I've found is start when you're ready and work until you lose focus (forcing it is where diminishing returns kick in). Expect that to mean days where you work for 3 hours straight and days where you work for 14 straight (or days where you do 2 in the morning, stop for 3 hours, then do 3 in the evening) but don't throw a tantrum when that flexes.

Employers would be blown away by how much better the output and quality of work would be if they just left people the hell alone (fire your managers). People would also focus less on petty BS because they'd be happy instead of acting like children clawing at an ideal that only exists in their head.

Assume people are lazy idiots and you'll get a bunch of lazy idiots. Assume they're smart and generally well-intentioned: put your sunglasses on. You'll get the occasional clown (who you fire) but most will respect you for not treating them like cattle.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#248

Post by knownjorbist » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #188

knownjorbist wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "capitalist propaganda". There's a reason humanity moved in this direction, away from feudalism and subsistence farming. It sucks. More people today enjoy a higher standard of living than even the wealthiest could have dreamt of in the time period discussed in this article. Your life does not hinge on a good growing season or getting mysteriously sick with no cure. You don't have to know how to hunt, forage,…

Literally this article is about how on several important metrics, we don't overall have a higher standard of living. People didn't move into the factories from the fields for the higher standard, they moved there because they never owned the fields, and the industrial revolution pushed them out with increased automation, so they moved to the only place that would employ them even though it was a step backwards in sta…

> Literally this article is about how on several important metrics, we don't overall have a higher standard of living.

Can you show where this is? All I can find is that by some estimates, some people spent less time doing certain things than they do today. That is not a "higher standard of living" unless you want a completely shallow and de-contextualized feel-good talking point.

Objectively improved standards of living over the 500+ year period in question: child mortality, caloric availability, adult literacy, crime, sanitation, understanding what _germs_ are... the list really goes on and on and on.

It's not a conspiracy. People voted with their feet on this one.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#249

Post by slibhb » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #241

go_elmo wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats too romantic - physical labour isnt funny when its repetetive and continuous, which most are. Also not using your head is frustrating / degenerative. What helps me most is keeping a balance, making mid day breaks for long runs outside or a nap does miracles. But I agree, it also needs mental relief to regenerate, but doing sports gives at least minimal breaks.

I’ve done factory style extremely repetitive physical labor, it’s almost meditative as you can kind of zone out. Manual labor generally means issues with injuries, age, and low pay. But I have had plenty of much worse office jobs. Personally my all time worst jobs was nothing to do for 3 months at a stretch while sitting on a client site so I couldn’t simply read a book.

Exactly. When you do this sort of work, your mind can wander. Compare to programming where you can't get anywhere if your mind wanders.

Of course it's hard on your body and it pays a lot worse.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#250

Post by quin3 » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #209

dnissley wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any that definitely supported some form of individual rights? As a total weirdo it frightens me to think that I might have been born into a society where my differences may have caused me great suffering at the hands of tradition.

I’m not sure I follow? In today’s society a lot of people suffer because they are different. Disabled people for example, who would have been cared for in indigenous cultures. Yes the Iroquois supported individual rights. They just had a culture where whatever you did, you kept the needs of others in mind and did what you could to help. You were still an individual.

While true, without advancements in modern healthcare, many of the disabilities people go through life with today would result in a much earlier death. Cystic fibrosis for example is to this day incredulously expensive to treat but with a much greater life expectancy than during the heyday of the Iroquois.