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Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

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Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Age difference is important here. Physical labor jobs will work better for young people than old.

Not entirely true. Visit some east asian countries and you'll see the physical work is literally what keeps the elderly so physically fit and in good shape for very long.

Can you be more specific? After visiting China and Vietnam and seeing the very difficult and tiring conditions people have to endure as a way of life, I don't think the elderly there can say they're in good shape or physically fit.

Most likely you were only exposed to older people who were still physically fit enough to continue being able to provide for themselves, and never saw the vast majority of people in their 50s and 60s who are permanently physically impaired.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#312
Life in the preindustrial world was incredibly poor and dangerous by our standards.

World population was 1/10 of today, so there wouldn't have been food for most of us.

Of course, our ancestors living then didn't have that comparison, and were possibly much happier than we are.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#313
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally the article this thread is on for one example.

The article in the thread does not discuss the mechanism by which populations migrated to factories! Or are you reading a different article? Where are you getting these ideas that peasants were forced to move into the factory towns against their will, or that they considered themselves worse off for doing so?

I will give you some actual facts here (because you appear to be genuinely interested, I can only speak about England which industrialized first).

Urbanisation happened over a long period of time and was very far advanced in the UK (and in places like Belgium). Europe always used a far higher stock of capital (inc. animals) than in Asia but it was only when land began to be enclosed that you saw productivity really improve (it wasn't until the 1700s that European agricultural productivity really equalled places like China), and urbanization accelerate. It is also important to remember that the Industrial Revolution did not happen overnight, there was a period of proto-industrialization when work was "put out" by merchants, this was often in textiles and sometimes with capital/machines that workers owned in their own homes.

It was really in the late 18th/early 19th century that you saw levels of protest begin to rise, as factories started to grow, as workers began to get displaced into factories, and then as workers got displaced by children working in factories. This was a huge "thing" in politics throughout this period, although during the Napoleonic Wars laws were passed which clamped down on protest significantly (Chartism, the Luddites...this was probably the first example of cohesive "working class" political movement anywhere). Importantly though, the only cohesive example (that I know) of protest against agricultural improvement was the Swing Riots in the 1830s, which were localised.

To be clear, this is not because there were no protests but because the protests had happened two centuries earlier with enclosure. That was the main process that really led to agricultural productivity improving (combined with the mortality from the Civil War and migration to the Colonies decreasing the pressure on population). Mechanisation in agriculture wasn't really a factor until much, much later (there was very little need, labour was basically free and ample...the poor laws of the early 19th century were a huge wage subsidy for land owners).

The other stuff the guy you replied to said is way, way off...as I have said elsewhere, this is just feudal romanticism by people who don't understand the past but have their views about the present so just see what they want to see. The standard of living then was significantly below the level existing in every developing nation today. It is fair to say that the industrial revolution treated them no better (the riots I mention above bear that out, it wasn't automation but mechanisation and the introduction of child labour which mechanisation facilitated), but that ignores the massive political changes that occurred soon after (if you look at the UK, the stuff occurring in factories was a huge scandal...a lot of the "political economists" of the day who are famous today unf did not help, but it did get solved and living standards improved).

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#314
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article in the thread does not discuss the mechanism by which populations migrated to factories! Or are you reading a different article? Where are you getting these ideas that peasants were forced to move into the factory towns against their will, or that they considered themselves worse off for doing so?

I will give you some actual facts here (because you appear to be genuinely interested, I can only speak about England which industrialized first). Urbanisation happened over a long period of time and was very far advanced in the UK (and in places like Belgium). Europe always used a far higher stock of capital (inc. animals) than in Asia but it was only when land began to be enclosed that you saw productivity really i…

Thanks, hogfeast!

I am really interested in economic history, so I was aware of the enclosure period, but don't know much about it -- can you recommend some reading material to this and also the Swing Riots? (I know I can google, but books are better)

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#315
Hunter-gatherers actually worked even less: about 1 1/2 to 3 hours a day

As discussed in Stone Age Economics by Sahlins:

https://archive.org/details/StoneAgeEconomics_201611

https://bigthink.com/big-think-books/vicki-robin-joe-domingu...

The biblical expulsion from the Eden of gathering fruit to the toil of agriculture also makes that point.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#316

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

Thats too romantic - physical labour isnt funny when its repetetive and continuous, which most are. Also not using your head is frustrating / degenerative. What helps me most is keeping a balance, making mid day breaks for long runs outside or a nap does miracles. But I agree, it also needs mental relief to regenerate, but doing sports gives at least minimal breaks.

Also, huge cost to your body. Every relative I know who is was the trades, now has issues all the time directly attributable to their work. Their body has aged x2 compared to mine.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#317
post #315

Hunter-gatherers actually worked even less: about 1 1/2 to 3 hours a day As discussed in Stone Age Economics by Sahlins: https://archive.org/details/StoneAgeEconomics_201611 https://bigthink.com/big-think-books/vicki-robin-joe-domingu... The biblical expulsion from the Eden of gathering fruit to the toil of agriculture also makes that point.

"Our jobs are called upon to provide the exhilaration of romance and the depths of love. It’s as though we believed that there is a Job Charming out there—like the Prince Charming in fairy tales—that will fill our needs and inspire us to greatness. We’ve come to believe that, through this job, we would somehow have it all: status, meaning, adventure, travel, luxury, respect, power, tough challenges, and fantastic rewards."

This resonates a lot with me and I'm sure others

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#318

> And they worked only as many days as were necessary to earn their customary income -- which in this case amounted to about 120 days a year, for a probable total of only 1,440 hours annually (this estimate assumes a 12-hour day because the days worked were probably during spring, summer and fall). This goes against everything I've been taught, that the plebian class basically toiled endlessly, from Feudal Times to I…

Before there were artificial lights and other things there really wasn’t much you could do when it was cold and dark. Factory workers at the end of the 19th century definitely had a horrible life. They had to fight for 6day weeks and often had to work away hours a day under very dangerous and unhealthy conditions.

"Artificial lights" were a thing as far as pre-recorded history (and for rural illiterate peasant activities, much of middle ages is essentially pre-recorded history relying on oral tradition, artifacts and e.g. 18th century documentation of old-at-the-time practices instead of contemporary writing) - especially in northern areas where during winter months you get sunlight for a quite limited time, if you look at the medieval and earlier research of "evening work" i.e. various activities that can be done under candle light or the meager light from "wood-stick" (I don't know the proper English term, essentially very narrow pieces chopped off of firewood, placed in special holders to provide evening light for the many people for whom candles were too expensive). We have descriptions of "pre-light" rural work, of preparation activities for e.g. breadmaking that were done in the morning before the day enabled to do the proper work, and which had to be done earlier in order to not waste the scarce daylight hours on it. .

Artificial light is an important piece of social technology, and improvements to it had a big impact, but people have needed and used artificial light to sustain their non-daylight activities since pretty much forever; stone age communities did their social activities next to a fireplace in the dark. Like, today is going to be 9 hours of daylight for me, and for December-January there's going to be just 7 hours or so of daylight; people are not going to lie down for 17 hours, they do try to do the same things just with less light.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#319

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: End “consumerism” behavior where every problem is perceived to have a solution in the form of a quick product you can buy - much of that is a psychological trick played by marketers and rarely solves the real problem. Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc. Des…

>End “consumerism” behavior where every problem is perceived to have a solution in the form of a quick product you can buy - much of that is a psychological trick played by marketers and rarely solves the real problem.

>Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc.

>Develop a culture where getting rich is not the goal but making sure everyone has what they need is. This has worked in other human societies before so this should be possible.

There are two versions of this: communism and Religious asceticism (particularly Christian, given the concern for all individuals.)

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The past leads directly into the present, so how could that possibly be? When do you think it’s cut off? Does yesterday not suggest anything about today?

It can possibly be because that is what history is. It is the study of things which are not the present. It is irrelevant whether yesterday is like today because history is not about yesterday. Again, if you are interested about this subject, I would read some books about historiography (EH Carr and Elton are two of the most important books of this last hundred years...but, again, I don't think you will find anyone a…

I can agree as far as the point that the past must be understood on its own terms and not in terms of contemporary categories, but if EH Carr and Elton truly believe the past has absolutely nothing to tell us about the present, they're about the only people on Earth, including academic historians, who think so. Looking them up suggests their ideas are rather controversial and not simply accepted as consensus ones either (and indeed rejecting the concept of "contingency" would put him out of step with pretty much every working historian I've listened to).
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