Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991) • Hacker News Board

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#281

Post by monocasa » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

knownjorbist wrote: post #248

monocasa wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally this article is about how on several important metrics, we don't overall have a higher standard of living. People didn't move into the factories from the fields for the higher standard, they moved there because they never owned the fields, and the industrial revolution pushed them out with increased automation, so they moved to the only place that would employ them even though it was a step backwards in sta…

> Literally this article is about how on several important metrics, we don't overall have a higher standard of living. Can you show where this is? All I can find is that by some estimates, some people spent less time doing certain things than they do today. That is not a "higher standard of living" unless you want a completely shallow and de-contextualized feel-good talking point. Objectively improved standards of li…

Literally the whole article about work versus leisure over time.

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy to have ended up in a bad place systemically. We can 'conspire' to change it for the better though.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#282

Post by monocasa » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #265

monocasa wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally this article is about how on several important metrics, we don't overall have a higher standard of living. People didn't move into the factories from the fields for the higher standard, they moved there because they never owned the fields, and the industrial revolution pushed them out with increased automation, so they moved to the only place that would employ them even though it was a step backwards in sta…

I'm curious where you are getting this alt-history. Do you have any academic or popular primary references? Who do you read for economic history that supports these conclusions?

Literally the article this thread is on for one example.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#283

Post by lindseymysse » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

malthuswaswrong wrote: post #262

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many indigenous cultures. The Iroquois native Americans might be one example. There was no notion that a minority got rich off the labor of others.

And how did those indigenous cultures fair when they came in contact with Western systems of resource collection and distribution? How can a system be both agrarian and strong enough to survive contact with non-agrarian systems? How do you stop 10 people from secretly working hard and producing an extra ration of gruel right under your commie nose?

Well, we just watched the greatest military in the world™ scuttle out of Afghanistan with its tail between its legs, so we know that a primarily agrarian society CAN resist a militaristic society as long as its prepared.

Pre-Colonial American societies were decimated by the biological warfare of the Europeans first. Now America turns its taste for biological warfare on itself. But, anyway, I digress.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#284

Post by rsj_hn » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:55 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #282

rsj_hn wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious where you are getting this alt-history. Do you have any academic or popular primary references? Who do you read for economic history that supports these conclusions?

Literally the article this thread is on for one example.

The article in the thread does not discuss the mechanism by which populations migrated to factories!

Or are you reading a different article? Where are you getting these ideas that peasants were forced to move into the factory towns against their will, or that they considered themselves worse off for doing so?

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#285

Post by pugets » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:56 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

While in college, my summer job each year was working for the city in manual labor. "Street specialist" was the job position. I experienced three summers of hot asphalt shoveling, vegetation removal, catch basin cleaning, and traffic flagging.

I had a lot of fun working there, and so did most of the other guys who were my age. The job paid well and gave us more freedom than we were used to. But I noticed all of the guys who were aged 40+ had bad backs and were addicted to chewing tobacco. There's only so many OSHA-approved ways of paving a quarter mile stretch of road in one afternoon, and that can take a physical toll on someone's body over decades.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#286

Post by eggsmediumrare » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:58 PM UTC

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #257

tiefquart wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that. I'm quite open and creative but writing poems and bringing 10 different music instruments to a novice+ level won't pay my bills. So I studied some STEM and worked in a field that interests me. But working in consulting brought me to a burnout in just under 2 years. I quit and now have a chill desk job, but even now - I often can't motivate myself and I see no point in sitting 8 hours at a desk, when I ca…

Glad I'm not the only one without motivation to work but make it look like I do :)

I have a feeling there are many of us, but some are too afraid to admit it.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#287

Post by swayvil » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 11:01 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

I was a carpenter, then a coder, now a carpenter again. I strongly prefer carpenter (independent contractor)(and by carpenter I mean generalist). But I still have coding projects.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#288

Post by swayvil » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 11:11 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #164

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

Age difference is important here. Physical labor jobs will work better for young people than old.

A lot of that is the work philosophy. Ideally you'd work at exactly the speed that seems appropriate, on an appropriate schedule.

But so many of the jobs require you to work faster than you should and longer than you should even if you're tired. I even had a boss tell me once that my work was too good therefore I was working too slow. They really want you to just thrash it out like a maniac. Which is exhausting and dangerous. Really takes the fun out.

I've also had sane bosses who knew what's sane. And now I'm my own boss and I keep a very sane schedule.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#289

Post by rodgerd » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 11:12 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

> There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking

Read "Bullshit Jobs".

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#290

Post by clairity » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 11:16 PM UTC

malthuswaswrong wrote: post #267

clairity wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and/or idealized socialism. i agree that consumerism is an issue, but the solution isn't 'end consumerism', as that's just completely unrealistic. it'd be more realistic to think of ways to redirect our esteem-giving activities toward people who produce real and essential goods, and the rest would balance out much better as a result. that's diametrically opposed to our corrent system of giving esteem to the wealth…

The way "esteem" is distributed today is if you produce something I want I "esteem" you by buying it. If you don't produce anything I want I "disrespect" you by doing absolutely nothing to you. I don't give you anything, I don't take anything away from you. I simply smile, nod, and move on with my life. Seems like you want to take freedom of association away from the rest of humanity and put it into your own hands. I…

that's an odd and quite uncharitable interpretation. there's not even a remote connection to (restricting) freedom of association, much less with my own hands (how would that even work?).

the underlying point is that money isn't the be-all-and-end-all of what we value and what we exchange in our socioeconomic lives. money collapses a multidimensional social calculus into a single-dimensional metric, with all the undesirable consequences of that kind of collapse. hoarding wealth is selfish, but it's worse when it also hoards power and esteem along with it.

not many wealthy people deserve respect (or power) along with their riches. people who make stuff with their hands and brains, not passively through wealth (e.g., rents), deserve esteem. that's the point.