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Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

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Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#221

Post by mlyle »

agumonkey wrote: post #210
mlyle wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This debate -- noble, enlightened savages vs. modern culture -- comes up again and again on the internet. To me it seems to miss the point. Modern life is not something that was intentionally designed. We're talking about the emergent output of different complicated systems, with wonderful things and horrific things enabled by both. Undoubtedly we've sacrificed some of the best aspects of the past for dubious gains.…

How I see the last 200 years of progress was that past life was indeed harsh and chaotic (how do you handle potential deadly diseases popping anywhere without biological models.. not easy). Ensuring more food, more time for the mass was an obvious unstoppable benefit, but to a certain extent. > One of the problems with an increasingly global culture and economic system is the erosion of diversity. If we had drastical…

> I'm not sure I fully get your paragraph (you write conceptually dense ideas) but I kinda see a globalized homogenization

Yes--- . The problem is that there are massive economies of scale and interconnection driven by trade and global markets. In turn, the large scale of the marketplace doesn't leave much room for labor or capital to not be allocated "optimally". In turn, the amount of ability any given entity (individual people, businesses, or even nation-states) have to experiment with significantly different systems is very limited.

For experiments on the smaller scale, there's a big chance they are not applicable to broader groups. And experiments on the larger scale (revolutions, massive policy changes, etc) tend to have unintended consequences and a massive body count.

We're in a stable-ish equilibrium, but it's completely unlikely we're near any kind of global optimum on material wealth, or quality of life, or any other given chosen axis.

> of cultures which seems impoverished.

This is an interesting one, too. There was a certain threshold of wealth reached just before industrialization which allowed a massive growth in cultural expression and we have wonderful things from many cultures that emerged then... that then, with global media and global trade we've been able to enrich further-- we've played off of and learned and enjoyed the riches (culinary, musical, artistic, literary, ....) thereof. But in so doing we've strip-mined this heritage and permanently weakened the nation-scale incubators of new ideas.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#222

Post by tiefquart »

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

I feel that. I'm quite open and creative but writing poems and bringing 10 different music instruments to a novice+ level won't pay my bills.

So I studied some STEM and worked in a field that interests me. But working in consulting brought me to a burnout in just under 2 years. I quit and now have a chill desk job, but even now - I often can't motivate myself and I see no point in sitting 8 hours at a desk, when I can work in 2 bursts of 30mins a day and get all the things done that a urgent.

So what then? I google stuff, look at my phone and chat with the one nice guy at work. Apart from social communication, all that time feels so WASTED.

And then at home you crave to go online and sit at your desk again, but this time it's a gaming desk. So because it's your hobby its cool - ?. No, honestly it drains your energy as well because it's no contrast to your work setting.

Fuck I need a cabin in the woods with a garden and a 15 hour remote job, I guess.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#223

Post by TaylorAlexander »

clairity wrote: post #216
BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t a dig against you, but isn’t this just an idealized view of a communist society?

...and/or idealized socialism. i agree that consumerism is an issue, but the solution isn't 'end consumerism', as that's just completely unrealistic. it'd be more realistic to think of ways to redirect our esteem-giving activities toward people who produce real and essential goods, and the rest would balance out much better as a result. that's diametrically opposed to our corrent system of giving esteem to the wealth…

Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say ending consumerism is completely unrealistic?

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#224

Post by Rendello »

dang wrote: post #202
Rendello wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi dang, I have a question about this. A while back I posted "Code Checking Automation [video]", but I couldn't help but feel the original title was quite vague. The video itself is about QuickCheck and more specifically, property-based testing. Would it have been kosher to add, maybe, "(QuickCheck)" or "(property-based testing)" to the end of the title to disambiguate, or did the original video authors screw themsel…

It's ok if you do things like that for clarity. We might (or might not) edit it out if the post makes the front page - that's a judgment-call area*. But we wouldn't post a scolding for it. We only do that when the guideline was broken in an obvious or baity way. For example, the OP was clearly editorialized when it didn't need to be—and in a baity way, which ended up lowering the quality of the thread. I'm sure that…

Thanks, that disambiguates things nicely.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#225

Post by BingoAhoy »

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #201
SequoiaHope wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: End “consumerism” behavior where every problem is perceived to have a solution in the form of a quick product you can buy - much of that is a psychological trick played by marketers and rarely solves the real problem. Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc. Des…

This isn’t a dig against you, but isn’t this just an idealized view of a communist society?

It's communism that reduces one of the notable downsides of communism, the social loafing aspect, due to reliance on machines instead of your fellow man for productive effort(labor equivalent).

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#226

Post by pbhjpbhj »

clairity wrote: post #216
BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t a dig against you, but isn’t this just an idealized view of a communist society?

...and/or idealized socialism. i agree that consumerism is an issue, but the solution isn't 'end consumerism', as that's just completely unrealistic. it'd be more realistic to think of ways to redirect our esteem-giving activities toward people who produce real and essential goods, and the rest would balance out much better as a result. that's diametrically opposed to our corrent system of giving esteem to the wealth…

Isn't ending consumerism essential to avoid running out of resources.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#227

Post by 77pt77 »

dnissley wrote: post #206
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many indigenous cultures. The Iroquois native Americans might be one example. There was no notion that a minority got rich off the labor of others.

Any that definitely supported some form of individual rights? As a total weirdo it frightens me to think that I might have been born into a society where my differences may have caused me great suffering at the hands of tradition.

Same as today. Very little.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#228

Post by kiloDalton »

I remember enjoying E.P. Thompson's take on "Time, Work-Discipline, and Industrial Capitalism" in college. He has a lot of interesting commentary about how technology in the form of accurate timepieces played a role in our concept of labor. The article is here behind a paywall (https://www.jstor.org/stable/649749). Anyone with access to a search engine can likely find a free copy ;).

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#229

Post by Chris2048 »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #198
Chris2048 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has worked in other human societies before so this should be possible Which ones?

Many indigenous cultures. The Iroquois native Americans might be one example. There was no notion that a minority got rich off the labor of others.

Servicing village sized tribes in relatively plentiful biomes, vs nation-level populations (serviced by machines) seem to be very different things.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#230

Post by polishdude20 »

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

I've noticed I don't want to sit and play video games because I sit all day at that desk. The last thing I want to do is sit there more.
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